timesjoke

An opinion backed by a lot of women's magazines, daytime shows and soaps, the billions and billions of dollars in makeup and fashion companies all run and managed by mostly women serving women. And this thread where one woman who was not looking the way she felt was right prompted a "fashion alert" and warning for all her fellow women. I am not trying to put Ali or any other woman down for this, I am just trying to make a point that was avoided in prior discussions where some doubt has been expressed where some of this "pressure" on women comes from. Well I do not agree with this. Based on what you just said every debate should be limited to one post and everyone just walk away happy that you had your say. I guess if your not interested in debating at all and your only consideration is keeping the peace then that would make sense, but if your not interested in if your point is properly considered or ignored completely then why bother to discuss anything at all? I keep saying that the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed on everything, and I just figured out that the next most boring would be a world where everyone is more scared of how people react to how we truly feel than anything else. If I am guilty of trying to force anything it would not be to try and control how people think but maybe I do try too hard to make people acknowledge certain details as valid even if they do not personally share the same opinion of how to define the details. That might be one of my failings in this area. So many people just ignore the details that do not match up to what they want to be true and that can possibly be where I go overboard sometimes. I can't really speak on what does or does not motivate emkay. She has sometimes joined the coven and sometimes been outside of it and I like her a lot. I guess my point from me is I do not believe she, Ali, or anyone else is "all" bad just because we have dissagreements but somehow that is the way I am viewed and I can't really control anyone but myself. I feel sad that she does not want to come here because I value her comments even though it may sometimes seem otherwise. I do not have to agree with what someone says to value what they offer, I think many here equate dissent from me to mean I hate them or something. It is like I have to be a "yes man" to be completely accepted or something. Well it is not like I am the only one who picks at a point, and I usually do it when someone is trying desperately to avoid that point. And no, two wrongs do not make a right, I am not trying to say that. If we all kept silent just because people would dissagree with us, when would we ever see any needed changes? It is always easier to just agree and shut up, but my life is not about taking the least restrictive path in life. Being silent just because someone else can be louder or is more willing to be nasty is not really a good way to live your life in my opinion. If that means I fail from not wanting to be bullied into submission.......well I can easily accept that kind of failure as not really a failure. Well your a very likeable guy, nobody could ever be offended by you because your so laid back and easy going, you do not cause waves and I respect you for that ability. But at the same time you don't get called the nasty names I get called, I believe I was called a liar this past week about 14 times and by three different people, I do not believe I deserve that kind of treatment and I can easily take it to that level but you see......that is what they want. They can never do wrong because it is done against me, but if I were to do the same back, I would not be allowed to stay, so I do the only thing I can do, stick to my guns and refuse to be shouted down with ugly attacks. I don't like this mess either, I don't really know of any other way for people like Ali and eddo to accept me unless I kiss their azz and give up when they turn nasty to avoid discussing a topic. Maybe your right, maybe I should just let them get away with ignoring points and making arguements from the 1% possitions but I just have this belief that our communities got as bad as they are by each of us being silent when we should be speaking out. By selling out our principles to avoid confrontation. By letting the negative people get their way just because they are willing to do what it takes to get their way and the good people are not willing to stand up to them. I will tell you this, I will give it more thought, maybe debating without taking everything personal is just not possible anymore.

Exactly, thanks for that snaf. To each their own, as long as they are not messing with the livestock, I mean that is just sick thinking what may have been happening to that steak before it made it to your plate...........

Twinkie!!!

Actually you just said what I have been saying all along, men do make opinions on women by the way they look, I completely agree, but we do not drive the fashion show or pressure women the way fellow women do, that was my main point from the beginning. Ali just does not want to admit she is part of the problem, part of the process that keeps women working extra hard just to fit in with their fellow women. I like you big time snaf, but everyone can't be the same in the world, I am not the type to sit back and be silent just to get along. I don't find it as that strange myself. I like pretty much everyone even though some people try to go out of their way to be excessive to me out of their need to be supportive of the coven over anyone else. I will not join the 'sewing circle' though, that is not my way. If I can be accepted for who I am, great, but I will not be someone I am not just to purchase some peace with false currency.

If you really believe anything two consenting adults do for mutual pleasure is juvenille just because "you" find it offensive then yes, you are a prude because that really is what a true prude believes. It is not like prudes do not ever have sex, just that their only willing to have a very narrow avenue of sexuality considered as 'good' and will call everything else 'bad'. I guess play acting and sex dates are also juvenille because it involves the imagination and 'play' leading up to and after the actual sex act itself. As I remember it the actual act was discussed as well and you never called it juvenille then, your only doing it now because "I" said I think it is cool to be able to do them, your still on your "support my buddy eddo" kick because he is angry with me, you have to be angry and over critical with what I say too. I asked you if you had ever performed a wet rasberry on a tummy before and you did not answer, I see them both as pretty much the same, in fact a 'motorboat' style of both male and female oral stimulation can be fun as well, where your causing a lot of vibrations that bring pleasure to sensative areas. With a woman a motorboat leads to oral stimulating of the breasts, I personally spend a lot of time in those areas and find all of it very pleasurable and have never had any woman say she thought it was demeaning or bad in any way until you just now. But that is in the mind of the people involved. Take S&M for example, is is the person receiving the pain that is actually in control, not the person giving it. Without true understanding of sexuality the prude will never be able to understand the realities. Straight missionary possition sex is humiliating to a woman who feels they are a victim of men. No single act is demeaning to a woman who enjoys the act, she is a willing partner and feels enjoyment and satisfaction from the experience because true sex is a two way street, both equally giving and taking in the activities. Well I post as you do, to speak my mind. You can shut up too you know, it goes both ways. My point is that every time you take a possition it is to try and show women as weak victims of men, why is it everything women volunteer to do it a man's fault? You blame everything from porn to now even a playful motorboat on men subjecting women to their control......can you not see a possibility that maybe some women may like a motorboat? That some women like to earn a living in the sex trade? Not all women share your narrow view of mutual exploration/enjoyment/sex?

You can't blame me for your own bad behaviors Ali. Even snaff got my joke but you had to miss it, because eddo is mad at me that means you have to spam attacks on me too, you have been doing this for years Ali, this is not just me. So I am not the common factor, because I was not around when you acted this way with other people eddo was angry with.

Compared to the vile things you have called me Ali, I really do not see where you can complain about how I address you. Sweetie, lol. Well as usual your arguement is for the 1% of women who work at a strip club instead of the 99% who do not. I guess that is you admitting I am right and it is women, not men who drive the fashion industry. That would certainly help a lot of men keep down their lunch, lol... Yes that was a shot, I'm sorry actually but if your not going to discuss things in reality then I may as well get just as stupid sometimes to try and rattle your cage. Your selecting lingerie has nothing to do with a discussion of how you feel women should be pressured to look certain ways in public. Your trying to change the subject and I will not let you get away with it. Again, your trying to change the subject, while men will say things like that, they will not take it to the next step to broadcast it all over the internet and who knows where else. Again nice try but where do they get these fashion ideas? Women's magazines and from each other most of the time. So? That is my point. You, what even I will call a relatively easy going woman when it comes to the "fashion police" mentality found yourself driven to add to the pressures women already feel to look a certain way to be accepted by fellow women. You, and most women are the driving force behind this fashion/appearance monster, not men. Ya well RO acts very girlish and keeps talking gay to me so I wonder about him sometimes, lol. I am sure each of these ladies have friends who they actually see and who can help them if they really need it, this was more about you ranting over the appearance of a woman you saw than trying to actually help anyone that is why I said your part of the problem where women are pressuring each other to conform to "your" set ideas of how women in general should appear in public. I could care less what name is on the bag/shoe combinations, louie batton or something?????? Her choices certainly have nothing to do with my knowing what any of those names mean. I see the general appearance of being female, clean, neat, I love ladies who do their own toes, somehow paying someone else to do them (all the time) says lazy or fat azz to me. I obviously do have my views on how women look on a general level.......but again your trying to change the subject. I don't run around telling women how to dress, I may make a comment to fellow men and even avoid or hang out with women who look certain ways but I have never tried to manipulate a general control over all the woman around me the way you just did with this jumping on a woman you know nothing about just because she did not meet "your" version of proper attention to her appearance before daring to go outside. Well unlike some I do take the time to be informed about many things I find as interesting. One thing the more observant might notice is I pick my battles to be about my strengths and what I am very concerned with, I rarely post in threads I have no interest in. I really do not watch television, sports and then mostly college football is one of my few exceptions. Nature shows, animal planet and the discovery channel are on when my kids are around but I spend a lot of time reading instead. I know a lot about many subjects because I am not wasting my brain on shows like jackazz or who wants to marry a millionare. Put simply, I do not believe for a second you would tell the truth on this. You always seem way more motivated to try and put me down than tell the truth, so honesty is not really that high on your priority list. You and your fellow mob seem to spend a lot of time trying to say I am dishonest and I have discovered in my almost 44 years that those who turn to those kinds of accusations so readily are themselves dishonest and projecting their own failings on others. You spotted this woman with the mustard on her shirt out of a crowd and it made such an impression on your life you had to run to your internet world and spread the word of such a horrible example of womanhood to all your internet "sisters" but you want me to believe you completely missed some ladies dressed like this? Even if it is true, the guys can still be motivated to feed the ego of the ladies their hanging out with, and they certainly did not find it reasonable to "spread the word" of this female fashion outrage all over the internet so we still come to my original point......... Women provide most of the pressure on their fellow women on the fashion department, not men.

It is normal snaf, every time I get eddo mad at me, Ali will be cross with me and be overly critical of everything I say, it will pass in a couple days but this is what she considers to be her obligatory duty as eddo's friend. If you look in other threads, you will see it is her going into every thread taking shots at me, even calling me names and trying to hold down all women because I think motorboats are funny and even fun sometimes, like a wet rasperry on a tummy. But anyway snaf......a ventilation system? Really? I guess the hiding places on a boat can be difficult to come by but that sounds pretty cool. In the Army it was easier to 'get lost' and we even sometimes helped each other take a goof off day.

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Well my Gators had a great scrimmage game where I believe we even asked for volunteers from the stands to play in the fourth quarter, lol. I think one of the most exciting games in this first week was the Florida State/Miami game, it came down to the last second of the game and a final short pass into the endzone that would give a win, or missing it would be the loss in a game with several lead changes even in the fourth quarter. The pass was flubbed, thrown into the dirt, 6 inches higher and they would have won, it was an exciting game that kept you on the edge of your seat just knowing the last to score would have the win. The single most impressive thing to me in the game was the poise of the Miami QB Harris. He is a true Sophmore and is playing better than many seniors, I say this guy will be someone to watch as he develops, another two years should be showing us a very good QB. I will be watching the USC/Ohio State game next weekend, yes I know that everyone is putting down the Buckeyes because of their barely getting past Navy but I really believe Ohio has more than what we saw in that game and home field advantage will mean more being as USC has not done that well this side of the Mississippi. Their win against Notre Dame in 2005 was based on a fumble, not really a solid win. Don't get me wrong, I think USC will pull off the win, but some people are trying to say it will be a runaway because of Ohio's trend to choke on the big games, but I think it will be a really good game. Who do you guys think will be the good games this comming weekend?

lol, keep trying Ali, your still missing the mark darling. My point was how you women pressure each other to dress a certain way, look a certain way, not men. I agree, based on standards set by "YOU WOMEN" some ladies look prim and proper, while other women have the slutty appearance. I use the definitions you women have defined, not me. You decided this girl looked bad enough to come on a forum and talk all about her bad looks and how you were ready to do an intervention for your fellow forum ladies to prevent them from looking like that. Your pushing this on your fellow women, not me. You have never seen me come on here and call out a fashion warning and offer interventions for anyone, lol. By the way, the guys were saying that for your benefit, it is always good policy to boost up the ego of the ladies your with when they are cutting their eyes (as I know you were doing without a shread of doubt) at some ladies. They propped your ego, and here you are speaking highly about it so clearly it worked perfectly to plan, lol. The saying "if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" is true about any women in the group that are not happy. So it is simply self serving to keep the women a man is surrounded with as happy as possible.

Hey Salt, you retired Navy? One of my best friends is retired Navy mostly Sub duty, he was an electrical engineer and I believe he said in the Navy they called him a 'snipe'. I have heard many stories about those bunks When we were not in the 'field' the Amry had decent bunks but in the field the very lucky had a cot to set their fart sacks on, if you were not lucky you had a little foam pad to put on the ground first, lol. In the Army you learned to sleep pretty much anywhere, I was famous for being able to sleep even going over rough terain in the back of a deuce and a half.

Love, Now there is a very overused and under respected word here in America. It is used to describe many things to include hate "I love to hate that guy". But considering the true meaning of love, can we find that meaning expressed in an object? Maybe, if the feelings connected to the object are strong enough to truly leave no other emotion or idea in your mind, something a few would call "pure". I offer an example: This weekend we made pies, no special reason, I just felt like it and always love to take the time to bake with my daughter who seems to be the only young female in the family who really seems to like baking. My own story is a strange one, while I tend to not eat many of the things I bake (I prefer an extra piece of roast over a piece of cake) I take a considerable amount of pleasure from my family and friends who seem to enjoy the food and baked goods I serve them. Some may not understand what I am saying, but I would think a few like Ali and emkay will. What is driving this discussion is the thoughts and memories that always get stirred up in my mind every time I find reason to use my rolling pin. It is an old, plain wooden one that most modern cooks would toss out without giving it more than a second glance. It does not even have a shafted handle to make it roll easier, you have to let the handles spin in your hands as you use it. It has some dings and dents in it and in all honesty it is just a tad out of round at this point, not bad, but you can tell when you use it compared to a new one. So why use such an old and worn out device when better and nicer pins are available? Because this pin belonged to my Great Grandmother. Still today when I flour the pin before rolling out some dough I remember my Great Grandmother's slightly twisted hands (bad arthritis) doing the same thing as I watcher her and my Grandmother bake stuff. The memories I have involving this pin are warm kitchens, laughter, the smells of biscuts or cookies or pies as well as the tasts and the genral feeling of family and even security that this can offer a small child........ I have few memories of my Great Grandmother, she died when I was very young but I do remember her using this rolling pin..........Then there is many years of my Grandmother using it, then my mother after her, it was always assumed one of my sisters would want it but while both love to cook, they never took to making dough from scratch. Their biscuts come from a can, their pie crusts come in a package ready to use......... So I pushed both my sisters to let me have it now that my mother is too sick to use it. They really did not put up any fight, they both know they will never use it while I will. But to be honest as much as this pin means to me I feel it should be passed on to a girl again, and that was the other reason I wanted it, the two neices I have do not like to cook even a little bit, only my daughter is showing some sign of having the 'bug' to be a great cook, to like how it feels to prepare meals and things that bring happiness to other people. To put love into your cooking. So when we bake we talk about many things but we also talk about the history of this pin, of how much good food it has made for our family and how many loving hands have rubbed flour over it through the years. So can an object come to offer us a definition or focus of love? I say yes, sometimes. How about any of you? Is there some item that when you look at it or use it that has nothing but good and loving vibes comming from it?

Leave it to you to complain about something you got for free.........lol. I believe most people get used to not only their bed and how it feels but also their surroundings that provide security and peace that helps in the relaxing and sleeping process. Traveling is under the best of cases not comfortable, in several studies it has been shown that vacations "ADD" stress to your life instead of relieving stress as they are intended to do. Comfy bed? Some like firm, some like soft, some like medium beds, we are all different and what is comfy to one will not be to another person. I have what I would call good beds in all my rooms, but I like firm beds and I have had a couple people say they are too firm, so is it the bed or is it possible that no bed is really good when it is not the bed your used to?

While I am not surprised that you are a prude and believe there is only one correct method of sex/mutual pleasure seeking......yours. By the way, I remember this topic comming up on the Jungle where a discussion started about a 'goldfish' cracker was giving a motorboat......you didn't say it was juvenille then, but of course it was not me saying it was fun so your opinion was different then, lol. By the way, how in the hell is a motorboat designed to keep women "under control"? If anything men wanting access to the woman for said pleasure seeking would keep the men under the control of women. I love the way you always try to make women sound like completely weak victims of men when it is the average man who kept in his place by women, the old saying, "women have half the money and all the vagina" comes to mind....

You most likely do not know that there were a lot of things dropped after people complained. The original speach Obama had planned to make included him asking the kids to get political and to help him (Obama) to make change happen. There were assignments like "how can you help Obama" and such. What he delivered was okay, but what he planned to deliver before the change was not okay.

Now there is an understatement if I ever saw one.

So much for freedom of speech, lol. So your okay with a guy screaming at a cop callimg him a racist without good cause as good and even great American behavior that should be rewarded, but if a guy has a rap song on his answering machine, then he does not deserve a chance for a job? He listens to rap so he can't possibly be a good worker?

I do believe women do it for themselves to feel better, but that is because they are already conditioned by their own circles that makeup and clothes are the way to accomplish that goal. The vast majority do not apply it as much or at all if they are staying at home, but instead do it when they are going out so it is what they do to face the world, not themselves. Tami does not really wear much makeup unless we are going out to a very special event or maybe a special celebration. She spends more money on hair products than she will ever spend on makeup. But, if she suddenly lost all interest in her appearance that is completely out of character, I would be concerned that something was wrong with her.

Again, your missing the point that it is not men who are pushing this agenda of dressing or looking a certain way, it is women who do it to themselves. Let's take this example, no maybe you would not tell that girl anything, but you speak about her among yourselves and that reasserts the notion of always having to look a certain way between you. You are teaching each other to wear certain clothes and use certain beauty aids to gain acceptance with each other, not with men.

lol, it's all good, I spend too much time on forums as it is, it is almost a gift to be banned from one sometimes, just to make me take a break

But your missing the point.....how does the lady know what the guy thought? The guy is not going to say anything. It is fellow women who give each other fits for how they look. I love watching a very sluttly looking lady walking around some women who are dressed conservative. The conservative ladies are tossing daggers with their eyes and the slutty lady is eating it up, lol. Why can't the lady wear whatever she wantsa without other women talking her down? In this case the lady is bummy looking, fine, but was her style (or no style) of dress really so bad several women have to talk bad about her? Your a woman, not me, so only you guys can decide but obviously men are not the ones applying pressure on women to look certain ways, that comes from fellow women.

Now look who is looking down her nose. Just because I do not blindly swallow bad science as truth, that does not mean I am not contributing to the discussion. What did you want me to do, be brainwashed by more 95% assumptions? By their own admission they say there is less fossil record than 2% of the toal population of life on Earth. Let's just say this as a fact that cannot be avoided: All life must come from other life. When that life is created it takes everything it will ever be from it's parents, nothing can be added to a life that is not already there. Being as all life must come from other life how did it all start on Earth? How do you get around that little problem? If it was possible to make life just appear by accident in the world, then it should be easy to make life on purpose in a controlled lab.

If this is not a great example of my point that women drive fashion and 'beauty' on each other and men have little to do with it nothing does. A man would have looked at her chest or her behind and not even cared about the stains on her shirt, lol. The kids may have caused a "too much baggage" alarm or even a more complex thought of being a good booty call possibility, depending on the guy's point of view. A more selective man may have avoided her because of her dress but he would no be prompted to go tell her or anyone else they need to spruce up for the sake of all women. Why are you women so hard on each other? Men will like you even in a burlap sack.....some will like you better in a burlap sack, lol.

emkay, All of that sounds good but if you look at the actual research you again see it is all based on assumption and backward looking connections. The genetic mixing their talking about is based on dating materials and assuming one part or another is from certain creatures. Almost all of that cannot be proven, it is identified based on assumption before testing so there is little hard fact in any of that. All of that is like the star wars movies, look very realistic, but not true. As far as adaptations are concerned, sure, I have always said all life has the ability to adapt within it's preset limits. Like fish who can change their sex, not in thousands of years but right now, it is built into their DNA as one of their traits.