Holocaust Denial, American Style 29 Nov 2007

[Ivanhoe Martin]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:36:45 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
mumbled:

>
>"Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> wrote in message
>news:c%Y4j.61$lt.52@amsnews12...
>>
>> "Ivanhoe Martin" <cliff@rasta.man> wrote in message
>> news:a5c6l3trilg9u3n4eemv67o5f7kmqoj67t@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 11:39:28 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>> mumbled:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Ivanhoe Martin" <cliff@rasta.man> wrote in message
>>>>news9s3l35s0uicbfp06h9sj3ta8tjbhnceoe@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:39:17 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>>>> mumbled:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Zeno" <Zeno@home.kom> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:3hjuk3p4h2dot1ul7d028uf1f1sn3ojbps@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:18:44 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Gatt" <gatt@damnnearwiley00.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:13ku5mjtb569pf1@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "cor" <corDEL@exchangenet.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:13ku2rca6dc3742@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the actual number of people who have been killed is most
>>>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>>>> more than one million.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Enjoy:
>>>>>>>>> http://ia331307.us.archive.org/2/items/tromenter/almoghad.wmv
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I promise you that almost everybody here will lack the courage to
>>>>>>>>> watch
>>>>>>>>> the whole thing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The next time you accuse America of murdering people there, make
>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> subtract the number of people you see being beheaded, macheted,
>>>>>>>>> executed
>>>>>>>>> in the name of Islam or Al Qaeda. You're blaming America for that
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>America is responsible because as the Occupying Power we are
>>>>>>>>responsible
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>the safety of the citizens of Iraq. Or didn't you know that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are thinking that america is "responsible" for Iraqis killing
>>>>>>> their fellow Iraqi? Or, are you unaware of the (almost nothing but)
>>>>>>> sectarian violence?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Iraqis have been killed by Americans in massive numbers,
>>>>> Tough.
>>>>
>>>>Your post is certainly idiotic.
>>>>
>>> You are a witless simp.
>>
>> when you cant deal with the actual topic do you always resorting to
>> attacking the other person?
>
>He can also quote conservative rags

And you can lie, so?

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47547780$0$2397$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
[snip]
>>>
>> You are a witless simp.
>
> Name calling only proves the emptiness of your arguments and mind. Better
> luck next time idiot.

Hmmm. Who is "name calling " now?
I really think you should withdraw that remark and see if the other person
is big enough to accept the apology/correction.

I suspect he won't. In which case you have proven your point all the more.

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:474f1f7e$0$16492$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Gatt" <gatt@damnnearwiley00.com> wrote in message
> news:13ku5mjtb569pf1@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> "cor" <corDEL@exchangenet.net> wrote in message
>> news:13ku2rca6dc3742@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>>
>>> But the actual number of people who have been killed is most likely
>>> more than one million.
>>
>> Enjoy: http://ia331307.us.archive.org/2/items/tromenter/almoghad.wmv
>>
>> I promise you that almost everybody here will lack the courage to watch
>> the whole thing.
>>
>> The next time you accuse America of murdering people there, make sure you
>> subtract the number of people you see being beheaded, macheted, executed
>> in the name of Islam or Al Qaeda. You're blaming America for that as
>> well.
>
> America is responsible because as the Occupying Power we are responsible
> for the safety of the citizens of Iraq. Or didn't you know that?

Not alone that, but BEFORE the US occupation there was not Al Qaeda or any
other Islamists groups of note in Iraq!
the US occupation facilitated rather than mitigated against Islamists!

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Ivanhoe Martin" <cliff@rasta.man> wrote in message
news:s4c6l3t69jv99dndbvkf6864tkoglc7o5i@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 11:39:08 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
> mumbled:
>
>>
>>"Zeno" <Zeno@home.kom> wrote in message
>>news:neh3l3l87cosb9dc3e0a7sde9nvmkset09@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:39:17 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
[snip]

>>>
>>> One day you will realize that al Qaeda is a criminal gang.
>>
>>What an odd dodge.
>
> Accurate too.

so what? Nobody denies Saddam was a ruthless dictator either! In fact I
OPPOSED him in the eighties when the US SUPPORTED him! But the FACT that he
was a dictator (supported by the US) or that Al Qaeda is criminal, does NOT
remove the FACT that al quad were NOT in any way prevalent in Iraq under
Saddam and came into Iraq because of the US invasion. Nor does it support
the claim about Al Qaeda in Iraq as if they were causing most of the deaths
there.

 

[Don Homuth]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>
wrote:

>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>mumbled:
>
>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam
>
>Oh?
>
>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
>
>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.

Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:46:58 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>BEFORE the US occupation there was not Al Qaeda or any
>other Islamists groups of note in Iraq!
LIAR!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm

Salman Pak / Al Salman
Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret
terrorist training facility at Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and
non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains,
planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.

The Salman Pak biological warfare facility was located on a peninsula
caused by a bend in the Tigris river, approximately five kilometers
(km) from the arch located in the town of Salman Pak. The facility
area comprised more than 20 square km, and might have been known as a
farmers (or agricultural) experimentation center. The peninsula was
fenced off and patrolled by a large guard force. Immediately inside
and to the east of the fence line were two opulent villas: the larger
built for Iraqi president Saddam Hussein and the other for his
half-brother, Barazan al-Tikriti. A main paved road ran through the
center of the Salman Pak facility/peninsula. [GulfLINK]

Plans were made in the mid-1980's to develop the Salman Pak site into
a secure biological warfare research facility. Dr Rihab Taha, head of
a small biological weapons research team, continued to work with her
team at al-Muthanna until 1987 when it moved to Salman Pak, which was
under the control of the Directorate of General Intelligence.

Located at the facility are several buildings. The probable main
research building at the site is a modern building, composed of twenty
four rooms, housing a major BW research facility. Using current
technology the research area alone had sufficient floor space to
accommodate several continuous-flow or batch fermenters that could
produce daily sufficient anthrax bacteria to lethally assault hundreds
of square kilometers. Adjacent to the research building is a storage
area which contains four munitions type storage bunkers with lightning
arrestors. Two of these bunkers have facilities for storage of
temperature sensitive biological material. Approximately a mile down
the road from the research area is a complex US intelligence believed
to be an engineering area. One building in this complex was thought to
contain a fermentation pilot plant capable of scale up production of
BW agents. A construction project comprising several buildings was
begun in early 1989 adjacent to the engineering area, and was near
completion in 1990. This new complex was assessed as a pharmaceutical
production plant. As such, this facility would have an extensive
capability for biological agent production. [GulfLINK]

Salman Pak, located 30-40 km SE of Baghdad, engaged in laboratory
scale research on Anthrax, Botulinum toxin, Clostridium, perfringens
(gas gangrene), mycotoxins, aflatoxins, and Ricin. Researchers at this
site carried out toxicity evaluations of these agents and examined
their growth characteristics and survivability.

Equipment-moving trucks and refrigerated trucks were observed at the
Salman Pak BW facility prior to the onset of bombing, suggesting that
Iraq was moving equipment or material into or out of the facility.
Information obtained after the conflict revealed that Iraq had moved
BW agent production equipment from Salman Pak to the Al Hakam suspect
BW facility.

The Qadisiya State Establishment [aka Al-Qadsia], involved in the
program to produce Al Hussein class missiles, is apparently located
nearby, along with the Al-Yarmouk facility which according to some
reports was associated with the chemical munitions program [and which
other reports place at Yusufiyah.

Iraq told UN inspectors that Salman Pak was an anti-terror training
camp for Iraqi special forces. However, two defectors from Iraqi
intelligence stated that they had worked for several years at the
secret Iraqi government camp, which had trained Islamic terrorists in
rotations of five or six months since 1995. Training activities
including simulated hijackings carried out in an airplane fuselage
[said to be a Boeing 707] at the camp. The camp is divided into
distinct sections. On one side of the camp young, Iraqis who were
members of Fedayeen Saddam are trained in espionage, assassination
techniques and sabotage. The Islamic militants trained on the other
side of the camp, in an area separated by a small lake, trees and
barbed wire. The militants reportedly spent time training, usually in
groups of five or six, around the fuselage of the airplane. There were
rarely more than 40 or 50 Islamic radicals in the camp at one time.

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:52:36 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>al quad were NOT in any way prevalent in Iraq under
>Saddam

LIAR!

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp

The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998. More
disturbing, according to an administration official familiar with
briefings the CIA has given President Bush, the Agency has
"irrefutable evidence" that the Iraqi regime paid Zawahiri $300,000 in
1998, around the time his Islamic Jihad was merging with al Qaeda.

Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime
trained "non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of
Baghdad. U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including
the presence of a Boeing 707. Defectors say the plane was used to
train hijackers; the Iraqi regime said it was used in counterterrorism
training. Sabah Khodada, a captain in the Iraqi Army, worked at Salman
Pak. In October 2001, he told PBS's "Frontline" about what went on
there. "Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on
assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of
buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of
operations related to terrorism. . . . All this training is directly
toward attacking American targets, and American interests."

But the Bush administration said little about Salman Pak as it
demonstrated links between Iraq and al Qaeda. According to
administration sources, some detainees who provided credible evidence
of other links between Iraq and al Qaeda, including training in
terrorism and WMD, insist they have no knowledge of Salman Pak.
Khodada, the Iraqi army captain, also professed ignorance of whether
the trainees were members of al Qaeda. "Nobody came and told us, 'This
is al Qaeda people,'" he explained, "but I know there were some
Saudis, there were some Afghanis. There were some other people from
other countries getting trained."

On February 13, 2003, the government of the Philippines asked Hisham
al Hussein, the second secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, to
leave the country. According to telephone records obtained by
Philippine intelligence, Hussein had been in frequent contact with two
leaders of Abu Sayyaf, an al Qaeda affiliate in South Asia,
immediately before and immediately after they detonated a bomb in
Zamboanga City. That attack killed two Filipinos and an American
Special Forces soldier and injured several others. Hussein left the
Philippines for Iraq after he was "PNG'd"--declared persona non
grata--by the Philippine government and has not been heard from since.

According to a report in the Christian Science Monitor, an Abu Sayyaf
leader who planned the attack bragged on television a month after the
bombing that Iraq had contacted him about conducting joint operations.
Philippine intelligence officials were initially skeptical of his
boasting, but after finding the telephone records they believed him.

No fewer than five high-ranking Czech officials have publicly
confirmed that Mohammed Atta, the lead September 11 hijacker, met with
Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer working at
the Iraqi embassy, in Prague five months before the hijacking. Media
leaks here and in the Czech Republic have called into question whether
Atta was in Prague on the key dates--between April 4 and April 11,
2001. And several high-ranking administration officials are "agnostic"
as to whether the meeting took place. Still, the public position of
the Czech government to this day is that it did.

That assertion should be seen in the context of Atta's curious
stop-off in Prague the previous spring, as he traveled to the United
States. Atta flew to Prague from Germany on May 30, 2000, but did not
have a valid visa and was denied entry. He returned to Germany,
obtained the proper paperwork, and took a bus back to Prague. One day
later, he left for the United States.

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:31 -0800, Don Homuth
<dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>mumbled:
>>
>>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam
>>
>>Oh?
>>
>>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
>>
>>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
>>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
>>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.
>
>Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.

Gee..."confirmed" as opposed to leaked, who knew???

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A54452-2003Nov17?language=printer

The CIA will ask the Justice Department to investigate the leak of a
16-page classified Pentagon memo that listed and briefly described raw
agency intelligence on any relationship between Saddam Hussein's Iraqi
government and Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network

In a news release, the Defense Department late Saturday described the
Feith memo as containing "either raw reports or products of the CIA,
the NSA [the National Security Agency, which performs electronic
intelligence intercepts] or in one case, the DIA [Defense Intelligence
Agency]."

http://hereticalideas.com/index.php?s=zawahiri

I learned of another possible connection early last year, while I was
interviewing Al Qaeda operatives in a Kurdish prison in Sulaimaniya.
There, a man whom Kurdish intelligence officials identified as a
captured Iraqi agent told me that in 1992 he served as a bodyguard to
Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden

 

[Don Homuth]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:40:44 GMT, Sir Sam <nite@cru.sade> wrote:

>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:31 -0800, Don Homuth
><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:
>
>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>>mumbled:
>>>
>>>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam
>>>
>>>Oh?
>>>
>>>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
>>>
>>>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
>>>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
>>>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.
>>
>>Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.
>
>Gee..."confirmed" as opposed to leaked, who knew???

What the CIA got from its paid informers what what it wanted to hear.
But such reports require independent confirmation -- and that never
arrived.

The Wingnut Press desperately Wants to find WMDs even now, Wants to
find an operational link between Saddam and ObL, Wants to find a
nuclear program -- just Anything it can use to assert that it was
correct all along.

It's not there. Not any of it.

All, repeat All of that "intel" was Dead Wrong, right across the
board.

The CIA now admits that. The early "reports" don't matter any more.

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:48:08 -0800, Don Homuth
<dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:40:44 GMT, Sir Sam <nite@cru.sade> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:31 -0800, Don Homuth
>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:
>>
>>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>>>mumbled:
>>>>
>>>>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam
>>>>
>>>>Oh?
>>>>
>>>>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
>>>>
>>>>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
>>>>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
>>>>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.
>>>
>>>Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.
>>
>>Gee..."confirmed" as opposed to leaked, who knew???
>
>What the CIA got from its paid informers

What has been leaked and comprises FACTUAL data!


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A54452-2003Nov17?language=printer

The CIA will ask the Justice Department to investigate the leak of a
16-page classified Pentagon memo that listed and briefly described raw
agency intelligence on any relationship between Saddam Hussein's Iraqi
government and Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network

In a news release, the Defense Department late Saturday described the
Feith memo as containing "either raw reports or products of the CIA,
the NSA [the National Security Agency, which performs electronic
intelligence intercepts] or in one case, the DIA [Defense Intelligence
Agency]."
This

 

[Don Homuth]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:08:36 GMT, Sir Sam <nite@cru.sade> wrote:

>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:48:08 -0800, Don Homuth
><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:
>
>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:40:44 GMT, Sir Sam <nite@cru.sade> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:31 -0800, Don Homuth
>>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>>>>mumbled:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh?
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
>>>>>
>>>>>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
>>>>>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
>>>>>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.
>>>>
>>>>Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.
>>>
>>>Gee..."confirmed" as opposed to leaked, who knew???
>>
>>What the CIA got from its paid informers
>
>What has been leaked and comprises FACTUAL data!

The leak is surely a Fact. Leaks always are.

The "data" however are Not confirmed.

The purpose of the Leak was to hide that Fact.

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Sir Sam" <nite@cru.sade> wrote in message
news:8bval3hpr9qr296ibobtt8ih7duhnr2af5@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:52:36 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
>>al quad were NOT in any way prevalent in Iraq under
>>Saddam
>
> LIAR!
>
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
>
> The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
> finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
> met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.


Okay thats cliam 1 . Iraqw were working with Zawahiri (which is NOTHINg to
do with Al Quaeda being established in Iraq but Ill deal with the issue
anyway)
I will number the rest. and dela with them below


Why do people keep repeating this old debunked claim? LOL The Weekly
Standard! Well at least you supply a source. Ill deal with the lot below.


>More
> disturbing, according to an administration official familiar with
> briefings the CIA has given President Bush, the Agency has
> "irrefutable evidence" that the Iraqi regime paid Zawahiri $300,000 in >
> 1998, around the time his Islamic Jihad was merging with al Qaeda.

2. Iraq paid Al Zawhari 300k
What "evidence" where is it?


>
> Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime
> trained "non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of
> Baghdad. U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including
> the presence of a Boeing 707.


3. Salman Pak was a terrorist training camp and that UN inspectors
confiormed this!
Rubbish! Where did UN inspectors say any such thing?


>Defectors say the plane was used to
> train hijackers;

WHat DEFECTORS SAID THAT? LOL curveball?

[snip - same claim Salman Pak and terrorism training]
>
>
> On February 13, 2003, the government of the Philippines asked Hisham
> al Hussein, the second secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, to
> leave the country. According to telephone records obtained by
> Philippine intelligence, Hussein had been in frequent contact with two
> leaders of Abu Sayyaf, an al Qaeda affiliate in South Asia,
> immediately before and immediately after they detonated a bomb in
> Zamboanga City.


4. Iraq was involved in or aware of a Phillipnes attack befiore iut
happened.


>
> According to a report in the Christian Science Monitor, an Abu Sayyaf
> leader who planned the attack bragged on television a month after the
> bombing that Iraq had contacted him about conducting joint operations.

Where is the evidence for this?



> Philippine intelligence officials were initially skeptical of his
> boasting, but after finding the telephone records they believed him.
>
> No fewer than five high-ranking Czech officials have publicly
> confirmed that Mohammed Atta, the lead September 11 hijacker, met with
> Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer working at
> the Iraqi embassy, in Prague five months before the hijacking.

5. The Prague meeting Alleged links between Atta and Iraq!

LOL you must keep up to speed . what have you read in the last four years.
Right wing spin? This has been soundly debunked

>Media
> leaks here and in the Czech Republic have called into question whether
> Atta was in Prague on the key dates--between April 4 and April 11,
> 2001. And several high-ranking administration officials are "agnostic"
> as to whether the meeting took place. Still, the public position of
> the Czech government to this day is that it did.
>
> That assertion should be seen in the context of Atta's curious
> stop-off in Prague the previous spring, as he traveled to the United
> States. Atta flew to Prague from Germany on May 30, 2000, but did not
> have a valid visa and was denied entry. He returned to Germany,
> obtained the proper paperwork, and took a bus back to Prague. One day
> later, he left for the United States.

So what correlation is not causality. But let me now deal with you
allegations.
1 . Iraq were working with Zawahir
2. Iraq paid Al Zawhari 300k
3. Salman Pak was a terrorist training camp and that UN inspectors
confiormed this!
4. Iraq was involved in or aware of a Phillipnes attack befiore iut
happened.
5. The Prague meeting Alleged links between Atta and Iraq!

I have dealt with these already in that particular thread and in
soc.culture.iraq ovwer the last months MANY TIMES.

I will here add additional evidence on his topic. [Marker Iraq Links to Al
Quaeda evidence report]:

In 2003 Jan 26 on page 11 of a Report entitled "CIA: Iraqi support for
Terrorism" (which you can find referred to - ref 160- on page 64 of the
following reference) "Saddam Hussain and Uasama Bin Liden are far from
being natural partners"


I use an official report to the US congress
http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

For the Iraq intel links you will note that have gone through 30 million
pages of Iraqi documents!

On page 65-66 you will note that GEORGE TENET (know him? The HEAD of CIA)
stated there is no confirmation of links to al quaeda!

It goes on about the lack of links and no supstantial proof of such links.

On page 71 you will note the Answer Al Islam (Zawharis group) is mentioned
as being linked to al Quaeda but NOT to Iraqi authorities!

They then go through links to al quaeda and planning operations withthem.
NOWHERE is any Philipnes attack mentioned.
Ther is one document in the whole 30 million which mentions people meeting
Al Quaeda and leavinf the door open for the POSSIBILITY of working together
(not actually working with them like the US did with the MuJIHADeen) -
bottom of page 73 where you note Bin Laden called Saddam an "unbeliever".

You may also have read the actual transcripts of Bin Ladens videos from the
cave in which he decries Saddam?

Skip on to page 82 for information on Salman Pak. On page 83 you will note
the OFFICIAL US POSITION of NO TRAINING of terrorists at Salman Pak after
1991!

On poage 84 the DIA states NO LINKS between Al Quaeda and Salman Pak!

Actually on page 85 you will note that far from training for terrorism it
was for training for COUNTER TERRORISM! In fact why would terrorists need to
train outdoors using an airplane? all they would need is a mockup of the
INSIDE of the Airplane! It is the COUNTER terrorists who want to take
control of the Airplane from the terrorists who need an Airplane to train
on?


On page 88 note the reference to Iraq not controlling the Kiurdis North and
that Al Zakawi'sd Anser Al Islam group operated there!

from 88-page 93 you will note that Iraq viewed Anser Al islam and Al Zawhari
as t THREAT and not as an Ally!

On page 94 they nmove on to the Prague meeting.

By the end of page 96 - reference 264 you will note that the US intelligence
service authotities are "Skeptical" whether Atta travelled to Prague!

The real meat however comes from page 105 - conclusions:

Conclusion 1: Saddam distrusted Al quaeda and refused ALL requests to work
with them!

2. There was ONE meeting between Saddams regime and Al Quaeda. There were
possibly two more where the Al Quaeda were rebuffed by Saddam.

3. No links on chemical and bio weapons

4. NO training by Saddams regime of Al Quaeda at Salman Pak OR ANYWHERE ELSE
in Iraq!

5. Saddam tried but failed to capture Zawahi and Anser al Islam. He did not
harbour them or co operate with them or even turn a blind eye to them!

6. Anser al Islan operated since 1991 in Kurdish controlled Northern Iraq
outside of Saddams reach.

7. No involvement in Sept 11 attacks.

8. No intention to work with terrorrists

That gets yo to page 111.

THAT IS THE WORD fromn CIA DIA FBI and NSA and Homeland Security based on
what they now know!

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Sir Sam" <nite@cru.sade> wrote in message
news:d40bl3tst3gnqec23tc4mafr7k7tud70ro@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:31 -0800, Don Homuth
> <dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:
>
[snip]

WE know about the Feith Memo being a mockup. but
let me now deal with your allegations.
1 . Iraq were working with Zawahir
2. Iraq paid Al Zawhari 300k
3. Salman Pak was a terrorist training camp and that UN inspectors
confiormed this!
4. Iraq was involved in or aware of a Phillipnes attack befiore iut
happened.
5. The Prague meeting Alleged links between Atta and Iraq!

I have dealt with these already in that particular thread and in
soc.culture.iraq over the last months MANY TIMES.

I will here add additional evidence on his topic. [Marker Iraq Links to Al
Quaeda evidence report]:

In 2003 Jan 26 on page 11 of a Report entitled "CIA: Iraqi support for
Terrorism" (which you can find referred to - ref 160- on page 64 of the
following reference) "Saddam Hussain and Uasama Bin Liden are far from
being natural partners"


I use an official report to the US congress
http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

For the Iraq intel links you will note that have gone through 30 million
pages of Iraqi documents!

On page 65-66 you will note that GEORGE TENET (know him? The HEAD of CIA)
stated there is no confirmation of links to al quaeda!

It goes on about the lack of links and no supstantial proof of such links.

On page 71 you will note the Answer Al Islam (Zawharis group) is mentioned
as being linked to al Quaeda but NOT to Iraqi authorities!

They then go through links to al quaeda and planning operations withthem.
NOWHERE is any Philipnes attack mentioned.
Ther is one document in the whole 30 million which mentions people meeting
Al Quaeda and leavinf the door open for the POSSIBILITY of working together
(not actually working with them like the US did with the MuJIHADeen) -
bottom of page 73 where you note Bin Laden called Saddam an "unbeliever".

You may also have read the actual transcripts of Bin Ladens videos from the
cave in which he decries Saddam?

Skip on to page 82 for information on Salman Pak. On page 83 you will note
the OFFICIAL US POSITION of NO TRAINING of terrorists at Salman Pak after
1991!

On poage 84 the DIA states NO LINKS between Al Quaeda and Salman Pak!

Actually on page 85 you will note that far from training for terrorism it
was for training for COUNTER TERRORISM! In fact why would terrorists need to
train outdoors using an airplane? all they would need is a mockup of the
INSIDE of the Airplane! It is the COUNTER terrorists who want to take
control of the Airplane from the terrorists who need an Airplane to train
on?


On page 88 note the reference to Iraq not controlling the Kiurdis North and
that Al Zakawi'sd Anser Al Islam group operated there!

from 88-page 93 you will note that Iraq viewed Anser Al islam and Al Zawhari
as t THREAT and not as an Ally!

On page 94 they nmove on to the Prague meeting.

By the end of page 96 - reference 264 you will note that the US intelligence
service authotities are "Skeptical" whether Atta travelled to Prague!

The real meat however comes from page 105 - conclusions:

Conclusion 1: Saddam distrusted Al quaeda and refused ALL requests to work
with them!

2. There was ONE meeting between Saddams regime and Al Quaeda. There were
possibly two more where the Al Quaeda were rebuffed by Saddam.

3. No links on chemical and bio weapons

4. NO training by Saddams regime of Al Quaeda at Salman Pak OR ANYWHERE ELSE
in Iraq!

5. Saddam tried but failed to capture Zawahi and Anser al Islam. He did not
harbour them or co operate with them or even turn a blind eye to them!

6. Anser al Islan operated since 1991 in Kurdish controlled Northern Iraq
outside of Saddams reach.

7. No involvement in Sept 11 attacks.

8. No intention to work with terrorrists

That gets yo to page 111.

THAT IS THE WORD fromn CIA DIA FBI and NSA and Homeland Security based on
what they now know!

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Zeno" <Zeno@home.kom> wrote in message
news:2dbvk311l7uoafnr4osdiqrlgk68c50mtf@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:47:50 -0800, cor <corDEL@exchangenet.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Zeno wrote:
>>...
>>>> America is responsible because as the Occupying Power we are
>>>> responsible for
>>>> the safety of the citizens of Iraq. Or didn't you know that?
>>>
>>> You are thinking that america is "responsible" for Iraqis killing
>>> their fellow Iraqi? Or, are you unaware of the (almost nothing but)
>>> sectarian violence?
>>
>>
>>The USA has financed their weaponry and facilitated the killing of
>>Shiites or/and Sunis. The USA provided billions of untraceable cash for
>>them to buy weapons, explosives, and even rechargeable drills for their
>>torture operations. The USA has facilitated corruption and ineptitude
>>and provided the pseudo legal foundation for torture, illegal and
>>indefinite detention, and over all, impunity at all levels.
>
> LOL, and then the Iraqi's pulled the trigger and slaughtered their
> neighbors.
>
> The point remains. The Iraqis are responsible for the violence.

thats like saying that Irish people are responsible for all the violence in
Northern Irelannd and that British colonialism and the planting of foreign
Scottish Protestents therer (and in earlier times all over Ireland) had
nothing to do with it!

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Don Homuth" <dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> wrote in message
news:acval3diehcj9f7a9emq92ilu6ka0b7lqt@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>
>>mumbled:
>>
>>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam
>>
>>Oh?
>>
>>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
>>
>>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it
>>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
>>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.
>
> Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.

Anyway at best a single meeting a decade ago whiuch IS NOt evidence of
planning world terror! But the US have had plenty of meetings with the
MuJIHADeen. In fact Rumsfeld (in the REgan years) even met Saddam several
times shook hs hand. The US removed trade embargoes and sold Saddam WMD. And
Saddam Used them (though maybe the Iranians also used them on the Kurds)
BEFORE he met Rumsfeld. Runsfeld and the US didnt complain about it then
though did they? They were busy supporting Islamists in Afghanistan while
they opposed them in Iran!

O Tempora O Mores! LOL

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:30:00 -0800, Don Homuth
<dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>The "data" however are Not confirmed.

WRONG!

http://www.burathanews.com/news_article_20033.html

The Republic of Iraq

The Presidency of the Republic

The Intelligence Service

Number: SH S/5083

Date: 1423 (Hijra), 12/12/2002

Secret

Mr. the respected M. M. SH. KH

To: Fifth, Sixth, Seventh Directorate

We would like to inform your Excellency that the date of 14/12/2002
was determined by the respected Secretary for the goal of the
important and top secret meeting with our source number (1000) Aymen
Al Zawahiri to agree on studying the prepared plan by the Respected
Presidential Committee regarding the operation (Revenge) inside the
territories of the

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:02:10 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:


rubbish....

Now then:


http://www.burathanews.com/news_article_20033.html

The Republic of Iraq

The Presidency of the Republic

The Intelligence Service

Number: SH S/5083

Date: 1423 (Hijra), 12/12/2002

Secret

Mr. the respected M. M. SH. KH

To: Fifth, Sixth, Seventh Directorate

We would like to inform your Excellency that the date of 14/12/2002
was determined by the respected Secretary for the goal of the
important and top secret meeting with our source number (1000) Aymen
Al Zawahiri to agree on studying the prepared plan by the Respected
Presidential Committee regarding the operation (Revenge) inside the
territories of the

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:50:55 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>
>WE know about the Feith Memo being a mockup. but

BULLSHIT!!!

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200410\NAT20041011a.html

When CNSNews.com published an article Monday, Oct. 4, entitled,
"Exclusive: Saddam Possessed WMD, Had Extensive Terror Ties," we
decided against publishing all 42 pages of the Iraqi intelligence
documents in our possession and on which the article was based.

We published only the first page, fearing that if more were made
widely available on the Internet, they might end up being altered or
otherwise manipulated. We offered credentialed news organizations and
counter-terrorism experts the opportunity to view and receive copies
of the documents so that they might check for themselves on the
authenticity of the documents and judge their importance in the debate
over whether Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction
and/or had ties to international terrorist organizations.

Several news organizations did just that. But in light of other
assertions on Wednesday, widely reported by the mainstream media, that
Saddam did not pose any significant threat prior to the U.S. invasion
of Iraq, we felt it was time to publish as many of the Iraqi
intelligence documents as possible.

What follows are copies of 30 of the 42 pages that are in our
possession. Pages 29 through 40 were excluded because they replicate,
though in a different person's handwriting, earlier documents.

Upon clicking on the individual pages of Arabic documents, readers
will have an opportunity to click on the unedited English translation
of those documents. We hope this serves to further illuminate a very
important element of the ongoing debate.

Page 1: Jan. 18, 1993 memo from Saddam Hussein, through his secretary,
to the Iraqi Intelligence Service, urging that missions be undertaken
to "hunt down Americans," especially in Somalia.

Pages 2-12: Jan. 25, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service to
Saddam Hussein, outlining the existing or developing relationships
between Iraq and terrorist organizations.
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Page 5
Page 6
Page 7
Page 8
Page 9
Page 10
Page 11
Page 12

Page 13: Feb. 8, 1993 response from Saddam Hussein to the Jan. 25,
1993 memo.

Pages 14, 15: March 11, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service
detailing plans for a meeting with "one of the leaders from the
Egyptian Al-Jehad" terrorist organization.
Page 14
Page 15

Page 16: March 16, 1993 response from Saddam's secretary to the March
11, 1993 memo.

Pages 17, 18: March 18, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service
detailing plans to "move against the Egyptian regime" of Hosni
Mubarak.
Page 17
Page 18

Pages 19-20: Iraqi Intelligence Service internal memos regarding the
information of individuals who participated at "the martyr act camp"
belonging to the Iraqi intelligence directorate.
Page 19
Page 20

Pages 21-26: They comprise a list of terrorists trained at a camp
belonging to the Iraqi Intelligence Directorate.
Page 21
Page 22
Page 23
Page 24
Page 25
Page 26

Pages 27, 28: Notes from the Iraqi Intelligence Service outlining
strategies. Included is the assessment that terrorist "efforts should
be concentrated on Egypt." The notes also advise against targeting the
U.S. military, but recommend targeting "Americans as general" as well
as "US agents inside the (Egyptian) regime."
Page 27
Page 28

Page 29-40: Duplicative of pages 2-12, except in a different person's
handwriting.

Page 41: Table indicating Sept. 6, 2000 acquisition of malignant
pustule (anthrax) as well as sterilization/decontamination equipment.

Page 42: Table indicating Aug. 21, 2000 acquisition of mustard gas as
well as protective equipment.

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:50:55 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

Dublin, Ireland

89.100.47.254 = [ 089-100-047254.ntlworld.ie ]
inetnum: 89.100.0.0 - 89.101.127.255
netname: UPC-IE
descr: Customers IE
country: IE
admin-c: HMCB1-RIPE
tech-c: HMCB1-RIPE
remarks: Contact abuse@chello.ie concerning criminal
remarks: activities like spam hacks portscans
status: ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by: CHELLO-MNT
source: RIPE Filtered
role: Hostmaster Chello Broadband
address: UPC Broadband
address: Internet Services
address: Erlachgasse 116
address: A-1100 Vienna
address: Austria
phone: 43 1 96068 5000
fax-no: 43 1 96068 5666
e-mail: hostmaster@chello.at
admin-c: AK991-RIPE
tech-c: SB666-RIPE
tech-c: MG111
tech-c: MS2509-RIPE
tech-c: AK991-RIPE
nic-hdl: HMCB1-RIPE
mnt-by: CHELLO-MNT
source: RIPE Filtered
route: 89.100.0.0/16
descr: NTL Ireland
origin: AS6830
mnt-by: AS6830-MNT
source: RIPE Filtered
route: 89.100.0.0/15
descr: NTL Ireland
origin: AS6830
mnt-by: AS6830-MNT
source: RIPE Filtered

 

[Sir Sam]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:59:24 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>Anyway at best a single meeting a decade ago whiuch IS NOt evidence of
>planning world terror

LIAR!

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200410\NAT20041011a.html
When CNSNews.com published an article Monday, Oct. 4, entitled,
"Exclusive: Saddam Possessed WMD, Had Extensive Terror Ties," we
decided against publishing all 42 pages of the Iraqi intelligence
documents in our possession and on which the article was based.

We published only the first page, fearing that if more were made
widely available on the Internet, they might end up being altered or
otherwise manipulated. We offered credentialed news organizations and
counter-terrorism experts the opportunity to view and receive copies
of the documents so that they might check for themselves on the
authenticity of the documents and judge their importance in the debate
over whether Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction
and/or had ties to international terrorist organizations.

Several news organizations did just that. But in light of other
assertions on Wednesday, widely reported by the mainstream media, that
Saddam did not pose any significant threat prior to the U.S. invasion
of Iraq, we felt it was time to publish as many of the Iraqi
intelligence documents as possible.

What follows are copies of 30 of the 42 pages that are in our
possession. Pages 29 through 40 were excluded because they replicate,
though in a different person's handwriting, earlier documents.

Upon clicking on the individual pages of Arabic documents, readers
will have an opportunity to click on the unedited English translation
of those documents. We hope this serves to further illuminate a very
important element of the ongoing debate.

Page 1: Jan. 18, 1993 memo from Saddam Hussein, through his secretary,
to the Iraqi Intelligence Service, urging that missions be undertaken
to "hunt down Americans," especially in Somalia.

Pages 2-12: Jan. 25, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service to
Saddam Hussein, outlining the existing or developing relationships
between Iraq and terrorist organizations.
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Page 5
Page 6
Page 7
Page 8
Page 9
Page 10
Page 11
Page 12

Page 13: Feb. 8, 1993 response from Saddam Hussein to the Jan. 25,
1993 memo.

Pages 14, 15: March 11, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service
detailing plans for a meeting with "one of the leaders from the
Egyptian Al-Jehad" terrorist organization.
Page 14
Page 15

Page 16: March 16, 1993 response from Saddam's secretary to the March
11, 1993 memo.

Pages 17, 18: March 18, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service
detailing plans to "move against the Egyptian regime" of Hosni
Mubarak.
Page 17
Page 18

Pages 19-20: Iraqi Intelligence Service internal memos regarding the
information of individuals who participated at "the martyr act camp"
belonging to the Iraqi intelligence directorate.
Page 19
Page 20

Pages 21-26: They comprise a list of terrorists trained at a camp
belonging to the Iraqi Intelligence Directorate.
Page 21
Page 22
Page 23
Page 24
Page 25
Page 26

Pages 27, 28: Notes from the Iraqi Intelligence Service outlining
strategies. Included is the assessment that terrorist "efforts should
be concentrated on Egypt." The notes also advise against targeting the
U.S. military, but recommend targeting "Americans as general" as well
as "US agents inside the (Egyptian) regime."
Page 27
Page 28

Page 29-40: Duplicative of pages 2-12, except in a different person's
handwriting.

Page 41: Table indicating Sept. 6, 2000 acquisition of malignant
pustule (anthrax) as well as sterilization/decontamination equipment.

Page 42: Table indicating Aug. 21, 2000 acquisition of mustard gas as
well as protective equipment.