VENEZUELANS REJECT CHAVEZ'S PLANS! HEY LIEBERALS, ARE YOU PAYINGATTENTION???

[SteveL]

On 03 Dec 2007 23:17:56 GMT, Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

>In news:nuCdnSZq-uUd48nanZ2dnUVZ8umdnZ2d@giganews.com SteveL
><stevelon@deletethisbitntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> And if it's the wrong choice (or becomes the wrong choice years
>> later) the people can vote in a government that sells it off again.
>
>Maybe. Sometimes these things become one-way traps and voting is no
>longer an option.

For the sake of argument, why do you say taking public ownership of an
industry endangers the vote? It just doesn't follow. There's no
precedent in other democracies.

BTW, although as you pointed out there are passages of the US
constitution that prevent the confiscation of private property, that
has never stopped the authorities from compulsorily purchasing
property from private citizens (e.g. land for a highway etc. etc) when
it suits them.

To me that's even worse. To claim power over genuinely private
property like that, whereas a major industry will have so many owners
it's almost collectively owned anyway.

 

[hal@nospam.org]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:51:23 -0500, "David L. Burkhead"
<dburkhead@sff.net> wrote:

>hal@nospam.org wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 15:09:31 -0500, "David L. Burkhead"
>> <dburkhead@sff.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You do realize you continue to engage in argument ad hominem, don't
>>> you?
>>>
>>> You do realize that is a logical fallacy, don't you.
>>>
>>> You do realize that you are undermining your own position with every
>>> post you make, don't you?
>>>
>>> Actually, you probably don't.
>>
>> coming from a guy who thinks that the cure for poverty is wealth.
>
> This is a straw man.

No, that's what you said. You said: overpopulation that is leading to
depletion of worldwide resources is due to poor people having too many
kids, and data shows that rich people have fewer kids, therefore the
cure for depletion of our worldwide resources is to grow the economies
by consuming more therefore reducing overpopulation therefore reducing
resource depletion.

No ****. That's what you said. The number of fallacies in all the
that is truly mind boggling.

wow

Hal

>
>> And
>> the cure for overconsumption is to consume more.
>
> As is this, plus circular logic.
>
>--
>David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
>mailto:dburkhead@sff.net "While we live, let us live."
>My webcomic Cold Servings
>http://www.coldservings.com -- Back from hiatus!
>Updates Wednesdays
>
>
>

 

[David L. Burkhead]

hal@nospam.org wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:51:23 -0500, "David L. Burkhead"
> <dburkhead@sff.net> wrote:
>
>> hal@nospam.org wrote:
>>> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 15:09:31 -0500, "David L. Burkhead"
>>> <dburkhead@sff.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> You do realize you continue to engage in argument ad hominem, don't
>>>> you?
>>>>
>>>> You do realize that is a logical fallacy, don't you.
>>>>
>>>> You do realize that you are undermining your own position with
>>>> every post you make, don't you?
>>>>
>>>> Actually, you probably don't.
>>>
>>> coming from a guy who thinks that the cure for poverty is wealth.
>>
>> This is a straw man.
>
> No, that's what you said. You said: overpopulation that is leading to
> depletion of worldwide resources is due to poor people having too many
> kids, and data shows that rich people have fewer kids,

Actually, I didn's speak about individuals, but about societies.

Straw man # one.

> therefore the
> cure for depletion of our worldwide resources

I didn't say anything about "depletion of our worldwide resources one
way or another. I was just speaking to the topic of population at the time.

Straw man # 2.

> is to grow the economies

> by consuming more

I did not say this.

Grow the economies, yes. "By consuming more" was not said. In fact, I
didn't go into any depth on the issue becaue I _know_ you don't have the
capacity to follow the arguments--as you demonstrate by getting the part
that was said wrong.

> therefore reducing overpopulation therefore reducing
> resource depletion.

I didn't say anything about "reducing resource depletion" largely
because what _I_ think of as "resource depletion" and you do are likely to
be completely different things.

> No ****. That's what you said.

Since we just demonstrated that it was not.

> The number of fallacies in all the
> that is truly mind boggling.

This statement is true--the only problem is that it's the number of
fallacies in your erroneous "restatement" (spelled "complete fabrication")
of my position.

>>> And
>>> the cure for overconsumption is to consume more.
>>
>> As is this, plus circular logic.

And there remains your use of circular logic here.

--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dburkhead@sff.net "While we live, let us live."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://www.coldservings.com -- Back from hiatus!
Updates Wednesdays

 

[Sam the Bam]

On Dec 3, Shuurai <Shuura...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Do you think a gun will protect you against nuclear weapons?
>
> Nope. Nor will it protect me against earthquakes,
> tornadoes, floods, or giant meteors.
> Or - and I really hate to even think this - are you actually stupid
> enough to believe that what you said above was somehow clever?
>
> >Are you looking forward to the day when civilization
> >collapses, and you can shoot anyone you want, anytime
> > you want? Are you trying to bring that time about?
>
> I guess we know the answer now.


This Jerry guy is great... he's like Hal on meth.
Don't chase him off, ok?

Sam

 

[Herbert Cannon]

>
> If there's one thing that the past is truly an indication of here, it
> is that the left has not tended to support Latin American dictators.
>
Check out Bolivia.

 

[Jerry B. Altzman]

on 2007-12-03 14:16 Jerry Kraus said the following:
> Actually, I think the appeal of guns is essentially fascist. "Hey
> I've got a gun!!! You can't mess with me!!!" Sounds pretty Freudian

And this is bad why?
Please use the space provided:
_________________________

It seems that a society where everyone is packin' heat would tend
towards MORE politeness, rather than less. You'd be much less likely to
be a lout if you might get a bead drawn on you. Win-win!

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman jbaltz@altzman.com www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.

 

[Jerry B. Altzman]

on 2007-12-03 21:49 Sam the Bam said the following:
> This Jerry guy is great... he's like Hal on meth.
> Don't chase him off, ok?

Wow, thanks!
Oh wait, not me.
Never mind.

> Sam

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman jbaltz@altzman.com www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.

 

[Bert Hyman]

stevelon@deletethisbitntlworld.com (SteveL) wrote in
news:j7qdneBsc8siOcnanZ2dnUVZ8qKvnZ2d@giganews.com:

> On 03 Dec 2007 23:17:56 GMT, Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:
>
>>In news:nuCdnSZq-uUd48nanZ2dnUVZ8umdnZ2d@giganews.com SteveL
>><stevelon@deletethisbitntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> And if it's the wrong choice (or becomes the wrong choice years
>>> later) the people can vote in a government that sells it off
>>> again.
>>
>>Maybe. Sometimes these things become one-way traps and voting is no
>>longer an option.
>
> For the sake of argument, why do you say taking public ownership of
> an industry endangers the vote? It just doesn't follow. There's no
> precedent in other democracies.

I didn't say that.

Garden variety populists, authoritarians and wannabe totalitarians
always start by attacking the blood-sucking rich and usually propose
to start fixing things by expropriating their wealth and
nationalizing industry. The fundamental tenets of all flavors of
collectivism are economic.

The road from communes to nationalized industry to collective farms
to prison camps is short and straight one.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

 

[Herbert Cannon]

> This Jerry guy is great... he's like Hal on meth.
> Don't chase him off, ok?

Damn, this guy is beginning to make like and respect Hal.

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 3:28 pm, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> "Jerry Kraus" <jkraus1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1304773c-713a-41a8-bc08-e3b3fa927956@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Dec 3, 2:56 pm, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> > Bert, go away. You're saying nothing, and you know it. Go off and
> >> > play.
>
> >> You have wandered into a newsgroup full of martial artists. For your own
> >> safety dont wander into any dojos.
>
> > Actually, people as stupid as you are don't frighten me much.
>
> Sonny, people as dumb as you frighten me a lot. If you get your way, I see
> a nation of enslaved wimps.
> Sorry> to disappoint. Although, it tends to explain your fascination with
> > violence.
>
> Aww how touching a Mr. Non violent. You gonna march around the block with a
> candle and chant take back the night next. Did anyone ever tell you that
> when sheep flock together wolves are not frightened.

Yes, I noticed that no one was frightened much by "911".

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 3:34 pm, Shuurai <Shuura...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If you want to avoid communism, you will have to
> > accept democratic socialism. You may not like it, but you have no
> > choice.
>
> Actually, we do have a choice. You may not like that we have a
> choice, but that changes nothing.

So how come the government has cut off funding for the Iraq War? How
come defence contractors are being laid off? How come the government
is freezing mortgage payments against the will of the Banks? How come
Alan Greenspan is predicting a depression if the economy doesn't move
to the left? Oh, I know, Greenspan's a communist!

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 3:35 pm, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> > I have no idea why this topic is on a martial arts site, myself.
>
> I am really puzzled how a wimp like you showed up here.
>
> > Although there are some quite interesting loons here.
>
> Yeah we have some left wing loons here too; however, I am quite certain
> they could whip your butt in a heartbeat.
>
> Including
>
> > professional writers who failed grade six grammar, and never learned
> > it in later life!
>
> Took your lunch money from you?
>
> I guess morons would have quite a large market for
>
> > their ideas though.
>
> You do? Where?
>
> Makes sense when you think about it.
> Not a thing you have been spouting has made any sense so far.

Because you haven't the brains to understand it. Stick to martial
arts. You have an advantage. Blows to your head will bounce off
harmlessly!

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 3:47 pm, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> steve...@deletethisbitntlworld.com (SteveL) wrote innews:6LCdnR3oKcZF68nanZ2dnUVZ8radnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
> > As for whether the Constitution is an impediment to nationalization
> > of industries, I don't know. Do you have a specific passage that
> > bans it?
>
> Well, the way our government is constituted, you'd have to find
> something in the Constitution that allows it. Remember: limited and
> enumerated powers.
>
> The 4th and 5th Amendments were intended to emphasize that the state
> can't simply confiscate property at will. But they are, as Hamilton
> said, "exceptions to powers not granted" and as such provide a
> "colourable pretext to claim more than were granted", hence the
> recent problems with eminent domain.
>
> > Should the Constitution remove the power to do such things from a
> > government with a mandate?
>
> Absolutely.
>
> The Constitution is subject to amendment by a well-documented
> process. If a People's State is what the people want, they'll have to
> be explicit about it and work for their own enslavement.
>
> --
> Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | b...@iphouse.com

Your obsession with the U.S. constitution is both Talmudic and
Communistic, Bret.

It's not a bad formulation for government, but hardly the only one.
Largely based on the Roman model. The best thing about it are the
very short intervals between elections for all members of the House.
Two-year terms for this very powerful body put a very tight check on
power for elected members. This is what is currently saving us from
disaster in Iraq, and in the domestic economy.

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 3:49 pm, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> > Chavez is basically an idealist in an uncertain position. He's a
> > potential Castro, but Castro wasn't really that bad a fellow either.
> > His options were limited.
>
> Why no, of course not, he really was a really good fellow, he just murdered
> the oppostion; and he just recently locked up the dissidents. Not a bad
> fellow at all, if you like living in communist dictatorships. If you dont
> you float.
> What utter bullshit.
>
> He did the best he could.>
>
> I would say he did a pretty good job of murder.
>
> > Once we get rid of Bush and implement some economic reforms
> > domestically, South America will restabilize, and the temptations of
> > Communism will recede.
>
> Yes and the world will turn nice and fuzzy and warm; and the terrorist will
> all turn into hippies: and we can all surrender our arms; and we can disband
> our armies; and Islam will be a peaceful religion; and everyone will love
> everyone; and I have some bridges and some plots of land to sell you - the
> snake oil I throw in for free.
>
> As I say, my nickname for Bush is "Instant
>
> > Communism".
>
> My nickname for you is moron. Unless of course you want to buy my plots of
> land, then I will call a dumb customer.
>
> He makes Communism look good, as an alternative to
>
> > imperialistic fascism.
>
> Gee that must be why we are having a presidential election in the future
> because we are a imperialistic fascist. The Bush Brown shirts are under your
> bed.

Castro doesn't kill people. The U.S. does. Castro has no Gulag, the
U.S. does. Despite being a poor country, average life expectancy is
just as high in Cuba as in the U.S. Cuba is a paradise compared to
Mexico. You don't see any Cubans escaping to "Freedom in Mexico".

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 3:50 pm, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> steve...@deletethisbitntlworld.com (SteveL) wrote innews:6LCdnR3oKcZF68nanZ2dnUVZ8radnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
> > On 03 Dec 2007 21:27:10 GMT, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>
> >>Minus the restrictions imposed by such a document, a democracy is
> >>nothing but a self-serving mob. Or more often, a mob put into
> >>service of someone who claims to be its sole representative.
>
> > I'm sure democracy can do fine as a concept without the US
> > Constitution.
>
> As a concept? Sure. And I said "such a document", not "that
> document."


>
> But in a real-world implementation, limits must be agreed to and
> codified and made difficult to overturn. That's where constitutions
> come in.
>
> --
> Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | b...@iphouse.com

Spoken like a true Talmudist, Bert! I'm proud of you. Fairly
communistic, too. Like a Kibbutz, you know.

 

[Bert Hyman]

jkraus_1906@yahoo.com (Jerry Kraus) wrote in
news:9d189e10-b1d6-4caf-9bbf-cc5fdb90e3e7@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:

> Spoken

Are you still following me around?

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 3:54 pm, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> > When the U.S. restabilizes, so will the hemisphere, and to some extent
> > the world.
>
> Utter cark.
>
> Bush has created ripples of violence and extremism> throughout the world.
>
> Here is a clue for you, moron, Islam and the extremism it promotes has been
> around since the sixth century. You might want to visit the library and
> check out the book " Unholy Terror." That was long before Bush - it was
> Clinton's time.
> Sorry Bush did not cause your plantar warts nor your jock itch either.

Racist propaganda of the type you spew are what got you 911, and are
what are currently destroying the U.S. economy. Go off to Iraq and
fight your nightmare fantasies loon. Or, take a trip to Afghanistan
on your own. Be a tourist there. The mountains are lovely.

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 3, 4:30 pm, Pierre Honeyman <pear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 11:10 am, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 3, 1:06 pm, Mark Goldberg <msgoldb...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > Jerry Kraus wrote:
> > > > I see you're a martial arts and gun freak.
>
> > > He's a father, parent, former soldier in service to his nation, a
> > > neighbor, a friend, a curious viewer of politics, a man who enjoys self
> > > defense, a man who enjoys sharing his sense of security and honor with
> > > his neighbors and colleagues.
> > > Why am I not surprised?
>
> > > Because you are a pimp... and he's a man.
>
> > > > I realize the concept that people should work together to try to solve
> > > > social problems would be difficult for someone who sees destruction
> > > > and killing as the only useful forms of social interaction to
> > > > comprehend, but there are, believe it or not, other ways of doing
> > > > things.
>
> > > > Actually, you've already lost. The only way to keep the U.S. economy
> > > > going to move to the left -- socialism.
>
> > > And the deaths of 150 million due to marxism, and the destruction of
> > > their entire economies, and destruction of the principles of liberty,
> > > all of which were rejected except by the left wing pimps who prattle...
> > > like yourself, about nothing, nothing at all.
>
> > > Pure vapor.
> > > And how about the anniversary last week of the 4-10 million Stalin
> > > starved with his collectivizations? and all the other anniversary's of
> > > marxist economic destruction.
>
> > > You dumb pimp, you dumbass cross posting leftist... why am I not surprised?
>
> > > Mark
>
> > Now, now, Mark. Let's not decry your "jewish heritage". Marx was a
> > fine philosopher and a good man. And Communism is really just applied
> > Judaism, when properly understood. And the Chinese have done quite
> > well with Marxism, thankyou very much.
>
> They have? Based on what standards? Is it the wonderful standard of
> living that the majority of Chinese live by? Perhaps, instead, it is
> their world-renown for political, economic, and social freedoms?
> Maybe it's the rapid pace of Chinese innovation, creating new
> products, new techniques, new ideas for the world to benefit by? If
> so could you maybe explain why Canada, a nation of 30M people, is
> sending economic aid to China, a nation of over 1Bn people?
>
> Um, hooray for Marxism?
>
> Pierre- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

China has a GDP as large as Europe or the U.S. now. They are poor,
because they were much poorer than the west for centuries, having been
virtually a European colony. Their economy grows by 10% a year, and
is likely to continue doing so. This is a direct result of Marxism,
applied to a highly regulated and controlled private sector. Economic
assistance is provided to all poor people in the cities who need it.
Medical care is free. Disparaties of wealth are far lower than in the
United States.

Canada is a colony of the United States with no military and huge,
untapped natural resources. Canadians are non-entities, protected by
the biggest bully on the block. Always have been. The Canadian
national religion is grovelling at the feet of the biggest bully on
the block. That's why they're sucking up to China. They see the way
the wind's blowing.

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 4, 7:58 am, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> steve...@deletethisbitntlworld.com (SteveL) wrote innews:j7qdneBsc8siOcnanZ2dnUVZ8qKvnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
> > On 03 Dec 2007 23:17:56 GMT, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>
> >>Innews:nuCdnSZq-uUd48nanZ2dnUVZ8umdnZ2d@giganews.comSteveL
> >><steve...@deletethisbitntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >>> And if it's the wrong choice (or becomes the wrong choice years
> >>> later) the people can vote in a government that sells it off
> >>> again.
>
> >>Maybe. Sometimes these things become one-way traps and voting is no
> >>longer an option.
>
> > For the sake of argument, why do you say taking public ownership of
> > an industry endangers the vote? It just doesn't follow. There's no
> > precedent in other democracies.
>
> I didn't say that.
>
> Garden variety populists, authoritarians and wannabe totalitarians
> always start by attacking the blood-sucking rich and usually propose
> to start fixing things by expropriating their wealth and
> nationalizing industry. The fundamental tenets of all flavors of
> collectivism are economic.
>
> The road from communes to nationalized industry to collective farms
> to prison camps is short and straight one.
>
> --
> Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | b...@iphouse.com

Ever been on a Kibbutz, Bert? That's how Israel started. Remember?

 

[Jerry Kraus]

On Dec 4, 10:30 am, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> jkraus_1...@yahoo.com (Jerry Kraus) wrote innews:9d189e10-b1d6-4caf-9bbf-cc5fdb90e3e7@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Spoken
>
> Are you still following me around?
>
> --
> Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | b...@iphouse.com

Have you considered a stalking complaint? Am I distracting you from
your romantic obessession with firearms? Frankly, I would have
thought your sexual fantasies regarding semi-automatic rifles would
have been sufficient to keep you occupied.