timesjoke

You mean just like his promise to not have lobbyists in his cabinet? Or how about his promise to let the American people have 5 days to review any emergency bill before signing it? I miss nothing, but I have no reason to believe what he says based on the outlines of the plans that are being circulated. The plans seem geared to be in direct compettition with existing insurance. There are no gurantees or restrictions keeping people from dropping their existing coverage for the cheaper Government plan. No, not the Government, certain people who want to control the power of the Government for their own purposes. The Government is not alive, it has no thoughts of it's own. The people who fill the possitions of power in Government direct it's actions. That is why certain things like activist Judges are selected so they can circumvent some elements of government and write law from the bench.

Well we can run in circles with your pretended ignorance of how it works but that will get us nowhere. My highschool example was how it works, each "season" there can be different and same players on the field, but the goal is always the same. Today it is Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reed, etc...... in ten years the names will change but the objective will remain the same. Baby steps on the road to socialist agenda.

I posted the short version of the suppreme court ruling, it was surrounded by the push to allow private health insurance in Canada, previously not legal in Canada. The court found that the Canadian system was killing Canadians so they allowed privare insurance so some Canadians would have the option of finding health care outside of Canada if they needed it. I do read all of the opinion pages people like Emkay offer but I cannot take an opinion page over hard facts. Nothing Emkay has said or posted even comes close to refuting what the Canadian suppreme court has said. The evidence is just too lopsided against Emkay's possition to be believable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaoulli_v._Quebec_(Attorney_General)

Your still missing my point snaf. Emkay says to ignore the Canadian suppreme court, ignore the yearly meetings, ignore their inability to treat some of their emergency care, ignore all the studies and research and take her word for it that everything is fine. Well it may be fine for her, just like many religious fanatics don't want their people to see doctors and such, but reguardless of how Emkay views it, the reality is that there are massive problems with Canada's healthcare system. We can believe the facts, or believe Emkay's flowery comments that all is reasonable. I prefer to believe hard facts.

Yes, what IWS said, let me post my statement again: I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing. I underlined the parts you ignored Bender. I qualify my comment by saying the poor and middle class already have medical care. I would offer support for a plan that targets those who fall through the cracks only because that is all that is needed at this time. I see no reason to create a bigger system that overlaps existing medical coverages or is a element for removing existing coverages.

Again your a smart guy pretending to not know how it works so your questions are not really honest. There is more to the game than any one player or single term of office. Thier socialist agenda is the point and their motivations are their own but include a lot of money and power, sometimes power is like a drug. Does the crack addict want to become addicted? Does the addiction make sense to the person who is not addicted? I remember my senior year in High School where we went to the State championships and made it to the final game. We up to that point were truly flying high and it felt good, almost like mini gods of our little world and winning the State championship was the goal to set our names in history. We lost big time, it was a terrible blow to our egos and our pride but we had accomplished more than one other team in all of Florida so it was still something to be proud of. Today I am still a school booster and want our team to win as much as possible even though I am not on the field. Am I in some grand conspiracy to help my chosen team win? The Liberals/socialists are not so much involved in a conspiracy as much as a tactic. Once people are enslaved by their need for Government to live their lives for them, it is easier for them to get their "team" in place to keep the entitlements flowing to the purchased voters because there is an understanding that the "other team" will try and take away entitlements.

Where the hell do you get that from? We already have existing programs that give all poor free medical care so no reason to do anything new to take care of them. I was talking about where there is a gap in Ameirca and what I would gladly support to deal with that gap.

The problem with the mess Israel has with Iran is that if they do take care of business, will that cause other Muslim Nations to take sides with Iran and attack Israel? That is where America comes in. Like Bender said, two guy one of them our friend in a fight, we step back and let them have it out but if other people jump in the fight against our friend......what do you think we are compelled to do then?

I did answer the question, why do all people/groups want power? Your a smart guy so now your just playing stupid. Even the most well intentioned Liberal/socialist looking for this power feels it is the way to make their plans happen for a socialist Nation with some misguided notion that they can create the perfect daycare center for all people but they are few to be sure. Some most likely even believe in the mentality that anyone with money must have stolen it from the "little guys" and not really earned it. Most are wanting the control to secure their own future, once they have the socialist programs in place, the masses will be voting away their "free" goodies if they vote for anyone else. This is all mostly about buying votes.

Look, even the Canadian suppreme court found the waiting lists are killing Canadians, am I to toss out their suppreme court rulings, all the studies, even their yearly "Taming of the Queue" meetings. Every shread of fact down to many emergency patients having to be shipped to America because they cannot treat their own people all points to a massive problem in Canada with their health care system.........but Emkay says all that is wrong so we should listen to her instead of their suppreme court rulings? Emkay is defending her system out of blind pride or something, but she is not being honest. Medical waiting times are so bad medical travel has become a massive business in Canada. Companies have sprung up dedicated to setting up medical treatments in other Countries packaged with travel and hotels.....now why would these exist in massive numbers if there was no market for them to service? So we have the Canadian suppreme court. The Taming of the Queue conference every year. Severe shortages of doctors estimated to be 10,000 short. Severe shortages in nurses and special technicians like MRI operators. Medical travel companies all over the place. Patients being transferred to America because Canada cannot treat them. The list goes on and on............But Emkay says there is no real problem. I am sorry but I seriously doubt the Canadian suppreme court would have found against the Government if everything was how Emkay describes it. Snaf, I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

Touching story, most likely made up or googled but again all of your arguements are on the 1%, you never once discuss the fact that the system worked even in your example of when the guy could afford his care he paid for it, when he could not afford his care, welfare took over. I see your story as a real American success story of how once a person cannot provide for himself, American welfare kicks in to provide for someone who is truly needy......as it should do. Do you think it would be any different in the Obama plan Bender? Those with money will try to find timly care because the Government plan will take too long and all their savings will be lost anyway. The 1% argument you offer will not change in any way. Besides, the wealthy guy your talking about will just have 50% of his income takes from him when he dies by the Government anyway with the Obama plans right? The death tax where Obama feels once a person dies they should give 50% of their income to the Federal Government as a last massive tax? And yes, 22 million and 33 million are not comparable to 310 million people. Sort of like trying to compare the operating cost of maintaining a mini van to transport 6 people every day to a bus needed to transport 40 people every day, it is completely different.

Why does anyone want power Forrest? Or do you prefer Mr. Gump? If you stopped pretending not to understand these things it would be easier........but that is your game right? Post a lot of fluff and meaningless comments to keep the discussion away from the areas you don't have answers for fight? Similar to what Ali has in her sig, We are promised equal opportunity, not equal results.

Tiny population, no comparison.

You tried to offer a fairy tale excuse but your wrong. I covered your claim before and you dodged my point. Insurance companies require a very wide stance to operate. The Government will remove about 95% of the customer base so there is no way a private insurance company will be able to survive, besides, where will the people go with their insurance anyway? Canadians who won the right to have private insurance come to America, Americans do not have an America to run off to, there will not be enough private hospitals to survive the price wars (caused by the Government pressuring lower costs) to be able to stay in business. Sure there will be a few still around to take care fo the "rich" but the middle class will not have an option other than the "free" system. You missing the point of how a free enterprise system works Bender. The Government will be operating at a massive loss. They will be running trillions of dollars in the hole every year while private insurance companies must make a profit to stay in business. The disparity will be too large. The only chance for private medical insurance to survive once America turnes to "free medical" care is for big global insurance companies to try and offer a group rate based on all the socialized medicine Nations banded together, but I doubt you could get enough people to all agree on the details. Emkay, The only issue I have from you is you downplaying how big the waiting times are. Even if your stories of never having to wait more than a week are true, that does not discount the factual reports I posted where even your suppreme court says your system is killing Canadians because of massive waiting times, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part can change what is reality. Oh by the way, you can't upset me, your clearly not being honest so your just disreguarded by me by posting facts that prove your wrong. You claim there is no safety net but I prove there is one with stories of how youre system is turning patients away to America for care they cannot provide....that is a safety net, but you can't admit it. Oh yes, let me add my links are facts, yours are opinion pieces from people who "WANT" the free system, of course they are going to say what you want them to say. The only thing keeping out medical ratings as an induntrial Nation down is illegal immegration that messes up our numbers. If you remove the illegals who are sick and die in America we have some of the best numbers in the World for quality of health.

It is always their own doing, anyone can have bad things happen to them, but it is their choice to stay down. I have started over twice, I never took a dime from the Government and I never will because I am nobody's victim, I cannot be kept down. Only if "YOUR" doing the giving yourself. Charity is choice and when people see voluntary charity it actually builds community and a feeling of responsibility from those getting the help. When the Government does it they create a trend of abuse that acutually hurts society. Leave it to the liberal who cannot support his claims to resort to the 1% arguement. Yes, about 1% of the polulation does fit into your description, but we have existing programs to take care of these people. I am talking about the 99% of the polulation that are "capable" but lazy, and you darn well know that is what I was talking about, but you have no comeback for that now do you? Again, these people "CAN" do just like you did "IF THEY ARE MOTIVATED" but they choose not to......why should we support the lazy and unmotivated? Well I laughed a lot in that one there Bender.....are you not the guy who said religion is bad? Using your own arguement that you hate everything associated with religion then you should also hate charity, being as only religious morals lead to giving of yourself. You have no clue what it means to be a Christian, but let me educate you, we still help others even with the oppressive taxes because no matter what the Government does, they will always mess it up. Christians run soup kitchens and food banks why.......... Why Bender? The Government has welfare programs so why do private Christians have to feed millions of people every year here in America that are hungry and the Government cannot help? Because the Government does not have a clue on how to do these things, they just toss money at problems hoping some of it sticks and helps. The same is true with this healthcare, they will waste 90% of the funds they take in and be happy about the waste because it comes with more power for them. At the end of the day Liberals only want control over the masses and controlling your healthcare certainly fits that agenda.

Unlike Liberals, most Republicans are individuals, but I will agree that in this age of mob rule politics, a lot of people are trying to save themselves at the cost of giving up their principles.

The waiting times are ten times as long in Canada, don't take my word for it, look at the official studies and the "Taming of the Queue" meetings they have every year, and the Canadian suppreme court that all agree that the waiting times in Canada are killing Canadians. If you have great insurance but can't get an appointment it is a problem with the doctor, not the insurance. In our system you are able to shop around and look for a better doctor but under Obamacare, there will no longer be competition for your business and everyone will make the same money for the same treatments so no reason to offer you better service because your trapped to take what they give you. We will lose about 70% of our doctors just like Canada, Europe, Denmark, Cuba, everywhere the Government tries to get in the way of medical treatment, there is low quality care with long waiting lines........I do not want that system myself, why must most of Americans lose great medical treatment just because a few lazy people want free medical treatments?

I believe Sarah stepping down is more on line with what IWS was saying. To many Sarah has become Alaska and a lot of important things are not getting the attention they should because of this crazy need so many people have to try and put her down. Even here on a out of the way internet forum some people like nothing more than to express their hatred of Sarah. They can't really point out a solid reason for their dislike, they give vague ideas but quickly change the subject when pinned down. If Sarah had no intention of running for office again, it only makes sense to let her partner take over and try to run as the incumbent keeping conservative ideas in place and not set aside just because people were too mixed up in the political 'goo'. I for one think it was pretty big of her to let Alaska get away from the mess.

Well you bvoth love to be untruthful with your comments and I guess that is to be expected when your only objective is on thing reguadrless what the facts say. Emkay, for you to claim there are no waiting times problems but your entire Country from the suppreme court to local doctors all saying there is a massive problem shows your not willing to be honest. What I posted was not idle gossip from unreliable sources, it was hard facts provided by the medical facilities themselves. You refuse to address the massive shortage for doctors, estimated to reach 10,000 short in the next few years as well as the severe shortage of nurses. You refuse to even admit many Canadian medical needs are shipped to America like the premature baby story I just posted because Canada just cannot keep up with the needs of their Nation. Why? Because they are run and controlled by the Government, there is no incentive to excell or be innovative because you get the same pay either way so just sit back and do the minimum. Sure many care, but how many people work for free? How long with you be over worked and underpaid before you begin to get jaded? Yes, America does have it's problems but it is not as bad as most claim. You speak of not waiting for emergency care and guess what, neither does any American. Everyone gets emergency care reguardless of their abulity to pay. The poor all get free medical care, in the numbers offered for those without medical coverage they include people on Government programs that offer free medical treatments so it is not like these people are not getting medical care, they are getting great medical care. The last big number offered as "Americans" without health care are not actually Americans, they are illegals who are here using our system to get free care sure, but they are not insured or on the welfare systems yet so they go to the emergency room and just don't pay the bills. Any system Obama creats will still have that problem to deal with. I am not angry or otherwise upset, I just find it interesting that you guys hide behind such untrue flowery comments about "free" medical systems when every "free" system out there has long waiting lines and people suffering while they wait. I guess my question is are we America or a socialist Nation? Canada, Europe, Cuba, all Nations with "free" healthcare are socialist or communist. Is that what we really want?

And you make my point for me very well my friend. You are doing what all people can do. Why are you so fast to bang on the Government welfare drum when your own life is one of taking care of yourself? Are you one of 'those' liberals who blieve some people are too stupid to take care of themselves? Do you think there are some who cannot do as you do? I don't see people that Way Bender. To me we are all equal and can do whatever we set our minds to do....the problem is motivation. Some are content with living lower in the status department as long as they can do so without putting forth any effort. My point in this is why should you or I pay massive increases in taxes just to take care of the lazy? Remove welfare and watch our illegal problem go away too because suddenly there are people who are willing to pick vegtables right here in America. That in turn makes more tax money on top of not paying it out for the welfare and suddenly we are back in the black as a Nation....and even if you wanted to make a national healthcare plan at that point, at least then we would have a way to pay for it where right now we can't.

You tried to state there was no issue with waiting lines, you gave examples of just walking in to get any treatment you wanted. I offered facts that prove you were not being honest about your waiting times...I am not wanting to fight, just wanting to discuss things from a fact basis. I find it hard to believe you have no personal experience with waiting times when it is listed as Canada's biggest domestic problem for several years running but I will be happy to call you the exception, not the rule. Your happy with a system that rations healthcare to the point people die waiting for their medical care.......I do not want that for America or my loved ones so when Bender says he wants to have a Canadian system for America I offer my reasons for not wanting the Government involved in healthcare. I posted a link and story about the safety net America provides for Canada. Every year thousands of patients are sent to American hospitals because the Canadian system cannot handle them. In the story I just posted All of Canada did not have a place for this premature baby to go so it had to be sent to America to receive care.....that is called a safety net. With all things there are steps, once our Government crosses the line to get into private medical issues they will keep finding new excuses to "improve" it just like they do with everything else. Today it is Government run healthcare that eventually runs all private insurance out of business because most of their customer base has been removed. The next step is discovering that they do not have the tax money to pay out all the claims so they will have two choices. 1 - Raise taxes severely to fund the Government insurance...... 2 - Reduce costs from reduced payouts to providers or restrict access to some treatments. I personally believe we will see higher taxes at first but when it is clear that they cannot raise taxes enough to properly fund something like this without major changes.....they will then turn to forcing down what doctors can charge for treatments. That I believe will cause many doctors to get out of the business, just like what is happening in Canada.

And your paid from tax dollars so it is a wash. You do not create "new" dollars is my point, your just recycling the same tax dollar. Many outside funds also come into Platte County I am sure. Remove all private business and everything will collapse, we need private business to keep the economy going, that is the heart of our system. Government employees and welfare are exactly the same from the standpoint they do not support themselves, they need the "system" to provide for their existence. On the other hand private business pays people to produce products and services that can exist without the Government being involved, so the money we generate means we are self-supportive.

Why would you think a wiki post as more accurate then the official study I already posted that put the average wait times at 18 weeks or more? Maybe because your own Canadian studies are very critical of it's healthcare? You have a shortage of nurses, a shortage of doctors so bad your dropping immergation standards to try and get doctors from other under developed Countries because your own people don't want those jobs.......why? Just tell me this, why do you have an annual big meeting called the "Taming of the Queue" if there are no massive waiting lists? There are litterally thousands of these stories: CP24- Parents separated from baby after transfer to US hospital because they lack passports - CTV News, Shows and Sports -- Canadian Television So my question is an easy one, once America switches, Canada will no longer have this safety net they have been getting by with for over 20 years. What do you guys do then?

Actually that is very easy, provide for yourself and everything else is easy. Not one person in the world "deserves" a free ride. I don't care how hard someone "thinks" they are trying, individual expended energy is irrelivant. Are you productive enough to support yourself....yes/no. So did you save a big portion of that "decent money" just in case? Or did you spend it as fast as you made it? Your story is a common one these days and I feel bad for all Americans who are in this situation but why should my tax dollars go to support your bad luck and lack of planning? If that guy was so stupid and you are better then start your own business, if you can afford all the new taxes Obama will put on your back as a business owner that is. You say you worked 7 days a week sometimes and was so good then you simply pick up the pieces of the dropped customers and do it all yourself...maybe hire a couple other people to work for you that knew the clients and other aspects you do not understand. You respect a guy because he is too scared of a mob to stand up for what he believes in?

If waiting lines are not bad why did your own suppreme court say the waiting lists were killing Canadians? I think your not being honest about this Emkay. Wait Time Alliance http://www.waittimealliance.ca/June2009/Report-card-June2009_e.pdf In the above report it shows clear massive waiting times where the majority of Canadians wait more than 18 weeks for many treatments. Using your breast cancer example: Median Wait Time for Curative Cancer Care in Canada for breast cancer is almost 60 days wait, that can be the difference between life and death or even the difference between saving a woman's breast or having to remove it. Why are so many Canadian people comming to America for treatments? Why is it even their government is sending patients they cannot treat to America such as many premature births and heart problems that they cannot treat in their own hospitals?