Bible Prophecy & The Scientfic Method

[ImWithStupid]

The only thing about the 2012 prophecy that intrigues me personally is the fact of the science behind it, the position of the earth at that date, and the possible future polar shift (that might be a reference to Revelation 6).

If this was correct, and it related to Revelation 6, in conjunction to the Bible, wouldn't that support Judeaism and disprove Christianity?

The Myans couldn't have known of Christ at that time.

 

[timesjoke]

1). So you do not believe the Gospel has been spread to the whole world? The prophecy does not say every single human being on the planet will know about Jesus or the Gospel story but it does say all nations and races. In my opinion, this is already taking place. Even the deepest jungles of Africa now have Christianity being taught and spread. There really is no 'uncharted territory' left in the world. The Gospel truly is taught globally now.

But Christianity first hit Africa in the fifteenth centery, that is why I have asked why now? Why not a long time ago if just 'partial' coverage is the requirement because we can say that all areas have been 'exposed' to the Christian faith for a very long time.

We all know that many people like my earlier examples and many, many others, never get any exposure to Christian gospel so again, if massive amounts of people still cannot get the chance to know of a Christian ***, how can we say they can be judged?

2). We believe the rapture is the unknown event Jesus speaks about. This is because we are given the specific length of time (in years and days) of how long the tribulation will last. Jesus also admonishes us to look for the signs of His return. He even jumped the behinds of the Pharisees for being able to realize the time they were in (the time of the Daniel's 70 weeks and the prophesied Messiah). He used the analogy of weather. He told them they could look up in the sky and tell what the weather would be like but they couldn't even discern the time of His first advent. So we might not know the day but we certainly know the season. Jesus used another analogy of the fig tree and its relation to summer and told us to keep watch.

Hope that helps.

Matthew 24:34-Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The context of "this generation" is widely discussed but many say this means the chance has come and gone for this prediction.

I believe "this generation" instead meant a generation to come but also we have to go further into Matthew and see that we clearly cannot predict the time this will happen.

Matthew 24:44-Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I have difficulty believing any attempt to predict this can be accurate because we are specifically told that we cannot know when this will happen and it will be like a thief in the night, comming without warning.

 

[Phantom]

If this was correct, and it related to Revelation 6, in conjunction to the Bible, wouldn't that support Judeaism and disprove Christianity?
The Myans couldn't have known of Christ at that time.

How so? Revelation is in the Christian New Testament. Because the Jewish Tanakh does not consist of the New Testament texts, how would this support Judaism and disprove Christianity?

Also, no I do not believe the Mayans knew of Christ or the Christian Bible until the Europeans arrived. What exactly are you asking? Are you trying to imply due to the fact their long count ends exactly at 2012 when the earth will be at the center of our galaxy? Well, the Mayans were aces at astronomy. We do believe their calenders were based on that. In fact, in some cases, their science was more accurate than ours is today.

However, it is only speculation that Revelation 6 has anything to do with the possible polar shift of 2012. Some scholars looked at the prophecy and noticed it mentions what some scientists think will occur if the world undergoes a sudden gravitational polar shift. It's all speculation, though. No one really knows exactly what the effects will be on the earth during that time or if a polar shift occurs at all whether or not it will be sudden or gradual. Our planet already has gradual polar shifting and weakening gravity. That is simply due to physics and the second law of thermodynamics dealing with entropy. Our magnetic fields are definitely weakening and some scientists are teaming up with 2012 doomsdayers to say this 2012 polar shift is it. However, the honest thing to say is that nobody really knows yet. We have never witnessed a polar shift or the effects before to know anything for sure.

 

[ImWithStupid]

How so? Revelation is in the Christian New Testament. Because the Jewish Tanakh does not consist of the New Testament texts, how would this support Judaism and disprove Christianity?
Also, no I do not believe the Mayans knew of Christ or the Christian Bible until the Europeans arrived. What exactly are you asking? Are you trying to imply due to the fact their long count ends exactly at 2012 when the earth will be at the center of our galaxy? Well, the Mayans were aces at astronomy. We do believe their calenders were based on that. In fact, in some cases, their science was more accurate than ours is today.

However, it is only speculation that Revelation 6 has anything to do with the possible polar shift of 2012. Some scholars looked at the prophecy and noticed it mentions what some scientists think will occur if the world undergoes a sudden gravitational polar shift. It's all speculation, though. No one really knows exactly what the effects will be on the earth during that time or if a polar shift occurs at all whether or not it will be sudden or gradual. Our planet already has gradual polar shifting and weakening gravity. That is simply due to physics and the second law of thermodynamics dealing with entropy. Our magnetic fields are definitely weakening and some scientists are teaming up with 2012 doomsdayers to say this 2012 polar shift is it. However, the honest thing to say is that nobody really knows yet. We have never witnessed a polar shift or the effects before to know anything for sure.

So if the Myans were right and nothing in the Bible can be backwards linked to 12/21/2012 then that disproves Bible Prophecy?

 

[ImWithStupid]

Why is 12/21/2012 able to be linked to more cultures than Bible prophecy? The Chinese were also far advanced as far as science and astronomy...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAtgPaggeTM&feature=related]YouTube - December 21 2012 the END? (Part 1 of 6).[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FodtX8C2SCA&feature=related]YouTube - December 21 2012 the END? (Part 2 of 6).[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txFNP3A5WnM&feature=related]YouTube - December 21 2012 the END? (Part 3 of 6).[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoIMDq-ckhk&feature=related]YouTube - December 21 2012 the END? (Part 4 of 6).[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfd8zEWubIY&feature=related]YouTube - The End? (Part 5 of 6).[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5c90e0Df9c&feature=related]YouTube - The End? (Part 6 of 6).[/ame]

 

[Phantom]

To TJ: Well, you kind of answered your own question when you cited the passage that states, 'ALL these things.' Jesus gives a list of many events that will occur throughout this church age. Wars, famine, plagues, etc. In other words, certain things will take place that have taken place since the fall from grace. However, He specifically warns there will be one generation that will witness 'All these things.'

Knowledge increasing (we live in what is known as 'the information age'), Israel will be reborn (some believe this is the fig tree prophecy as Israel is frequently referred to as the fig tree in the Bible- when the fig tree blossoms- this will be the sign of all signs that the fig tree is blooming and summer is near), Babylon will be rebuilt (for centuries prophecy scholars believed this had to be metaphorical but thanks to Saddam and not the UN, here comes the historical Babylon being rebuilt), travel will increase (this is obvious), people all over the world will be able to witness certain events (never before has this been possible prior to satellite), the Muslim collation led by Russia will be formed against Israel (this was fulfilled with the countries aligning by name as prophesied), etc., etc. There are hundreds.

This is the generation where all things are being fulfilled simultaneously.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you that we will not know the day or the hour- only the season. The season that is described in detail more than any other time in the Bible.

 

[Phantom]

So if the Myans were right and nothing in the Bible can be backwards linked to 12/21/2012 then that disproves Bible Prophecy?

2012 was simply the end of their 'long count.' Then the series starts over. As I am sure you know, their calender was cyclical- not linear like ours is. It simply starts over into the new cycle. Yes, I've read about the Chinese significance of 2012 as well. There is also something else but I can't remember the name of it. It was a computer program in America that specified 2012 as an extreme change of life as we know it.

But no, I do not think that disproves Biblical prophecy because there is nothing in the Bible that targets the year 2012, or the year 5773 in the Hebrew calender. Biblical prophecy is falsifiable but the way to falsify it is for the events to not be fulfilled. However, this simply isn't what is happening. In fact, it's the exact opposite!

 

[ImWithStupid]

2012 was simply the end of their 'long count.' Then the series starts over. As I am sure you know, their calender was cyclical- not linear like ours is. It simply starts over into the new cycle. Yes, I've read about the Chinese significance of 2012 as well. There is also something else but I can't remember the name of it. It was a computer program in America that specified 2012 as an extreme change of life as we know it.
But no, I do not think that disproves Biblical prophecy because there is nothing in the Bible that targets the year 2012, or the year 5773 in the Hebrew calender. Biblical prophecy is falsifiable but the way to falsify it is for the events to not be fulfilled. However, this simply isn't what is happening. In fact, it's the exact opposite!

Just like Nostrodamus, applying prophecy to past events is easy. All you have to do is manipulate obscure references to mean whatever you want.

 

[Phantom]

Just like Nostrodamus, applying prophecy to past events is easy. All you have to do is manipulate obscure references to mean whatever you want.

lol But it is so much more than that so it is impossible for that objection to stand.

Babylon, Israel, the European Union, etc., were held by some prophecy scholars as literal for centuries but they were scoffed at by the world and even allegorist prophecy scholars and preterists. Even Hal Lindsey in the 70's taught that Russia and China would rise as a military powers. After the Cold War ended, other prophecy scholars labeled him a false teacher and demanded a public apology from him. He refused and told them to just watch- this is what the Bible says will happen and it will happen. Sure enough, here it all comes. Russia and China are rising at an alarming rate. The E.U. was also something that was foreseen.

Another example would be prophecy scholars were baffled for years how on earth 'the entire world' could witness the death of the two witnesses in Jerusalem. With satellite and television, this is now possible for the first time in history. Then prophecy scholars warned of a conflict between Iran, Syria, and Israel. This seem inevitable to us today but all of this was warned of prior to Israel's rebirth of 1948.

Etc. ad nauseum. The prophecies were known and we know what to look for. The next thing we have our eyes on is the conflict between Israel, Russia, and the Muslim coalition. Not far fetched now but we've been waiting for decades.

You're objections are very understandable, not to mention common. In these types of discussions, the general objections always comes down to:

1). The prophecies were self-fulfilled.

2). The prophecies were written after the fact (pretty hard to believe considering even the newest books of the Bible are almost 2,000 years old lol).

3). The prophecies are so vague, they are fulfilled in hindsight.

However when a person studies, and I mean truly studies, the objections will become more and more absurd to that person. It's pretty fascinating.

 

[ImWithStupid]

lol But it is so much more than that so it is impossible for that objection to stand.
Babylon, Israel, the European Union, etc., were held by some prophecy scholars as literal for centuries but they were scoffed at by the world and even allegorist prophecy scholars and preterists. Even Hal Lindsey in the 70's taught that Russia and China would rise as a military powers. After the Cold War ended, other prophecy scholars labeled him a false teacher and demanded a public apology from him. He refused and told them to just watch- this is what the Bible says will happen and it will happen. Sure enough, here it all comes. Russia and China are rising at an alarming rate. The E.U. was also something that was foreseen.

Another example would be prophecy scholars were baffled for years how on earth 'the entire world' could witness the death of the two witnesses in Jerusalem. With satellite and television, this is now possible for the first time in history. Then prophecy scholars warned of a conflict between Iran, Syria, and Israel. This seem inevitable to us today but all of this was warned of prior to Israel's rebirth of 1948.

Etc. ad nauseum. The prophecies were known and we know what to look for. The next thing we have our eyes on is the conflict between Israel, Russia, and the Muslim coalition. Not far fetched now but we've been waiting for decades.

You're objections are very understandable, not to mention common. In these types of discussions, the general objections always comes down to:

1). The prophecies were self-fulfilled.

2). The prophecies were written after the fact (pretty hard to believe considering even the newest books of the Bible are almost 2,000 years old lol).

3). The prophecies are so vague, they are fulfilled in hindsight.

However when a person studies, and I mean truly studies, the objections will become more and more absurd to that person. It's pretty fascinating.

Yet, until something happens, only generalizations can be fortold. The Russia, Iran thing is an easy blend, they were of the known world at the time. Why no mention of the Far East, South America or even North America specific. Specifices are always in hindsight. Provide me with one, just one "specific" time, date, incident, that is fortold in Bible prophecy.

 

[timesjoke]

This is the generation where all things are being fulfilled simultaneously.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you that we will not know the day or the hour- only the season. The season that is described in detail more than any other time in the Bible.

And going back to my earlier point that far from all people have exposure to a 'Christian' religion, this is why I believe almost all Religions are based on the same *** and that *** has other plans for these groups than the group he offered his son to. *** clearly had the power to place examples of Jesus all over the world at the same time if he wanted that. Why only one small representation in one tiny location?

 

[eddo]

Real Christians aren't liars and hypocrites ~ wez

That is an excellent ideal, but very wrong.

Those that follow Christ (Christians) don't become perfect because they follow Christ. They still live in a fallen world. They still struggle with sin. They still struggle with issues in their lives, just like non-Christians do.

The difference is that us real Christians have a *** that they know loves them, even though they screw up. They have a *** that is willing toforgive, forget and help them move on.

This thought that "Real Christians aren't liars and hypocrites" is why many don't trust church, and why Religion is so wrong.

People go to church, see churchgoers in church, and then see those same churchgoers out in the world messing up. "Oh no, that church can't be real! It's got sinners in it!" Do people avoid hospitals because sick people are there? No, they go there to get better. The church is much the same way. It isn't for perfect people, it's for people trying to "get better."

Religion (capital R) says that it's followers must be perfect. It's leaders must be flawless. This has everyone more concerned about everyone else's issues rather than their own. When someone falls, it casts a horrible light on everything- because perfection has been preached and expected.

But *** knows that because of our free will, we will make stupid decisions, and He made a way for us to be cleansed from our screwups. But this hardly means that we won't still struggle, or at times fail.

Real Christians realize they are sinners, and choose to allow *** to forgive them- and help them move forward. Perfection is an admirable goal (and one all Christians should be striving for, since Jesus was perfect) but understanding that none of us are there yet is very important.

 

[timesjoke]

Great post eddo.

Clearly those with faith are not suddenly tranc\sformed into something other then human. Those who follow faith are basically exactly the same as everyone else, but we decide to aspire to do better, to knowingly admit where we are flawed and to try and not make the same mistakes over and over. We have a guideline for our behavoir even if we don't always meet that goal every day.

 

[Phantom]

Why no mention of the Far East

There is. In Revelation: the 'Kings of the East' and the 200 million man army. The Eastern coalition is now capable of such a number in its military.

South America or even North America specific.

Some believe the reference to 'coast lands' is referring to the Americas because the word used in the original Greek implies distant, isolated lands. Others, including myself, believe America will not be a prominent player in end times events. This could be due to the rapture taking away the majority Christian population of the Americas, leaving the countries unable to function properly as a world leader as we now stand or due to something far more violent like a nuclear attack. As it stands, America is already on shaky ground.

Others believe America is one of the 'ten kings.' If you would like to see it, let me know and I will hunt it down for you. The U.N. has actually divided the world into ten territories with North America being one of them.

Specifices are always in hindsight. Provide me with one, just one "specific" time, date, incident, that is fortold in Bible prophecy.

I did. Both videos in the O.P. discuss specific timelines. Then of course once we are in the tribulation, we have another specific timeline to go by. We have 3 1/2 years, then 3 1/2 years then 30 days then 45 days.

 

[Phantom]

And going back to my earlier point that far from all people have exposure to a 'Christian' religion, this is why I believe almost all Religions are based on the same *** and that *** has other plans for these groups than the group he offered his son to. *** clearly had the power to place examples of Jesus all over the world at the same time if he wanted that. Why only one small representation in one tiny location?

Let me ask you this: If all roads point to the same ***, what was the purpose of Jesus having to be crucified? Remember His plea in the garden immediately before His arrest- Is there any other way?

 

[eddo]

Let me ask you this: If all roads point to the same ***, what was the purpose of Jesus having to be crucified? Remember His plea in the garden immediately before His arrest- Is there any other way?

My thoughts on that:

Jehova, ***, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, etc- were all originally the same deity- if in nothing else than in mans desire to know his Creator. Man, somewhere along the way, decided that the way Joe Schmoe down the street was worshiping was wrong, so he changed it. Over and over and over. Now, I don't believe they are all correct pathways to that one ***, but I do believe that the different religions are all trying to get to that one true ***. Man screwed up the way to ***, and in turn made things a whole lot harder than they need to be.

Some like to use different belief structures that have common beliefs as an example of faiths stealing form one another (for example, more than just Christianity/Judaism have stories of great floods, virgin births, and others.) To me, this points, not to a discrepancy in belief structure, but a branching off somewhere along the way. and to me, it adds credibility to the faith I hold to.

 

[Phantom]

I do agree. The evidence seems to point to one primordial faith that was later distorted through geography and time.

 

[timesjoke]

Let me ask you this: If all roads point to the same ***, what was the purpose of Jesus having to be crucified? Remember His plea in the garden immediately before His arrest- Is there any other way?

Well taking the idea that *** is all powerful and capable of spreading the same mesage to the world in it's entirity, not just a very tiny speck of it, I have to believe the isolated event was on purpose and intended for the people involved, possibly even more but clearly not everyone because everyone was not involved in anything like this. If you consider it closely, not even 1% of the worlds population was involved in these times and stories so why make assumptions on ***'s mission?

There was no other way for Jesus, just like there was no other way for Job, certain things are done for reasons only *** can tryly explain, and maybe not even then because we may not be able to see thing his way.

All I am saying is *** must have a reason for not pressing this same faith in other areas, because he does not leave things to chance.

Think of this like a war, not all soldiers are given the same instructions or the same goals, or even the same battlefield, but all are just as important to the whole.

edit to respond to eddo

Great post eddo and that is my intention by saying most faiths are serving the same ***, man has done nothing perfect, no reason to expect designing a religion that is perfect would have any different result than anything else. My view even goes beyone the standard faiths you mentioned though, as I said just now, different soldiers for different tasks, all serving the same top leader.

 

[Fullauto]

my thoughts on that:
Jehova, ***, allah, buddha, zeus, etc- were all originally the same deity- if in nothing else than in mans desire to know his creator. Man, somewhere along the way, decided that the way joe schmoe down the street was worshiping was wrong, so he changed it. Over and over and over. Now, i don't believe they are all correct pathways to that one ***, but i do believe that the different religions are all trying to get to that one true ***. Man screwed up the way to ***, and in turn made things a whole lot harder than they need to be.

Some like to use different belief structures that have common beliefs as an example of faiths stealing form one another (for example, more than just christianity/judaism have stories of great floods, virgin births, and others.) to me, this points, not to a discrepancy in belief structure, but a branching off somewhere along the way. And to me, it adds credibility to the faith i hold to.

read zacharia sitchin ! ! !

 

[Phantom]

Oh come on. Sitchen is a debunked tard.