timesjoke

Yep, what RaE said.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/ About 3,500 acres of southern Arizona have been closed off to U.S. citizens due to increased violence at the U.S.-Mexico border, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The closed off area includes part of the Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge that stretches along the U.S.-Mexico border. Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu told Fox News that violence against law enforcement officers and U.S. citizens has increased in the past four months, forcing officers on an 80 mile stretch of Arizona land north of the Mexico border off-limits to Americans. The refuge had been adversely affected by the increase in drug smugglers, illegal activity and surveillance, which made it dangerous for Americans to visit. "The situation in this zone has reached a point where continued public use of the area is not prudent," said refuge manager Mitch Ellis. “It’s literally out of control,� said Babeu. “We stood with Senator McCain and literally demanded support for 3,000 soldiers to be deployed to Arizona to get this under control and finally secure our border with Mexico. “ U.S. Fish and Wildlife officials have warned visitors in Arizona to beware of heavily armed drug smugglers and human traffickers. “We need support from the federal government. It’s their job to secure the border and they haven’t done it,� said Babeu. “In fact, President Obama suspended the construction of the fence and it’s just simply outrageous.� Signs have been posted warning Americans not to cross into the closed off territory south of Interstate 8. Babeu said the signs are not enough – he said Arizona needs more resources to help scale back the violence caused by the drug cartels. “We need action. It’s shameful that we, as the most powerful nation on Earth, … can’t even secure our own border and protect our own families.�

excellent point. Thanks

I would just be happy if you and a couple other people would talk about the topic and stop derailing every topic to make it all about taking any excuse to flame me.

Because whining makes you sound like a pu$$y. pretty much And the original person taking cowardly shots at me in the first place makes them look good? Like I said, if it is wrong for me to reply, it is also wrong for people like emkay to make the attacks as well that prompted the reply, but not one person besides snaff has ever said one word against that. If some of you guys would at least admit publically that the shots made by emkay and company was wrong I might not feel compelled to point them out as often, but honestly your silence is saying your just as involved in the attacks as the person making them, so why would I care what you said about me responding? Maybe one day you guys will get tired of the crap and go after the source in people like emkay who can't stop the personal attacks. Until that day, I will continue to point it out when someone like her does ugly things like that.

Your not making any sense, nobody has waged any war over how they sell their oil, I have no idea where your trying to go now, what were we talking about? Are we talking about Iran? Because you seem determined to keep directing attention away from the fact that all of this is caused by Iran developing nuclear weapons, how about we keep to the fact instead of unproven conspiracy theories created by a lot of paranoid people? Wait a second, there you go again, you said: That implied that Iran was selling America oil so I corrected you then after I showed you that America does not buy oil from Iran suddenly your trying to talk about what currency they sell oil for, none of that has anything to do with their nuclear weapon program Buildre, how about we talk about that, it is sort of the topic of the thread. Again, I have nothign to do with any of it, it is the international comunity and independent groups who all agree Iran is developing weapons and most of those people don't care what currency oil is sold at so your conspiracy theory does not hold water. But while your so high on your horse looking down your nose at America remember that the entire world is connected to each other, when the Euro was in trouble recently and the US markets were hurting the entire world felt the pain, we are connected so while your wishinf evil on America remember that your also wishing evil on yourself and your loved ones at the same time. But we are still working and always have been dealing with sanctions on North Korea for their nuclear program, just like Iran, but North Kore is not trying to sell oil for a different currency, so again, there goes your crackpot theory of conspiracy right out the window. What does North Korea have that America wants? Nothing, and yet we are working just as hard on them so obviously it is about nuclear weapons and the damage they can do, not oil. More than America is scared of Iran having nukes. This has nothing to do with economics or oil, Iran is a speck of sand on the beach, they are insignificant in every way on the world stage but they have a leader who believes he is going to bring in the age of the 12th imam, and nuclear weapons are just one of the tools he needs for that. If Israel wanted to drop a bomb on them they would already have done it. Think about something though Builder, really think about this, up to now Israel has held their hand, but once Iran has the ability to follow through with their threat to wipe Israel off the map, suddenly they have a decision to make, do they let Iran attack them with their nuclear weapon or should they strike first? I think I saw you say you were a parent, if you had to make that choice to let your children possibly die or to strike first, what would you decide? Me, I would hate to make that decision, but I would not let them kill my family and fellow countrymen and do nothing. Like every other Nation that has them? Help me out with that one, other then America, what Countries currently that have nukes have attacked someone with them? Your right about one thing, if Iran gets them they will use them, through passing them to someone else most likely, and that is what will seperate them from everyone else, those who currently have them know mutual destruction is the only real result to their use but radicals like Iran will not be restrained from their use. We also have huge systems for the fast food industry, why? Because that is what people want, even the most vocal advocate for alternatives is himself burning up fossil fules flying his private plane all over the world (Al Gore), this man uses more fossil fules than 100 average Americans all by himself but he at the same time preaches how "everyone else" should cut back. Man caused global warming is a hoax designed to make the few elite like him a lot of money and give certain groups political power. But, no matter what direction we take from today, we cannot get away from oil overnight and we have to admit the one basic fact that if Governments force this to happen outside of free markets, it will be the poor who will suffer the most from their unnatural change. In America they are liberals, in europe they would be called socialists, the general theme is they want to stifle free markets, punnish success, and ask for the Government to live their lives for them. These liberals are now wanting to reduce oil production in America when our population explosion is increasing our need for oil so what does logic tell us? Logic tells us that if we need more, we will be getting that extra oil from other sources, making us weaker to foreign oil concerns. I like the idea of alternatives, but not at the expense of severely hurting the poor just to buy political clout and make a few elitists like Al Gore richer. We don't wage war for oil, it is out there for sale and we buy it, most of it from Canada so why would we need to wage oil for something we can easily obtain? As far as oil washing up, sure it happens, hard to make paper without cutting down a tree. We will get through this like we get through everything, almost all great inventions are the result of great need, this will not be an exception, good things will fly out of these ashes, the pain will be dealt with and the people of America will go on, we always do. lol, no need for the sideways shots, I mostly ignore Wez because most of the time he ruins a good point he is wanting to make with crazy stuff.........kind of like your attempt to try and make the Iran sanctions all about oil sales, it really does not make sense to try and ignore the reality and instead try and insert stuff that has no real basis in fact. I will say this to both of you guys, yes, America was involved in some things that could be seen as bad with Iran, but that does not give them the right to create and distribute nuclear weapons all over the world as revenge. Any nuclear weapons that are produced will be used in the usual terrorist targets, innocent children will die and not my children, they even if they get a weapon into America they would never waste it on a small city like Gainesville, Florida, no they will hit a big city and get maximum damage if they can but the most likely first targets will be against Israel, Europe, even Australia would be a prime target as punnishment for their help in Iraq and other things, no, America will not be the biggest to be hurt. Once nuclear weapons are unleashed, look for a whole new world to emerge, Hitler was ignored and pacified and we see what happened with ignoring the threat he represented, sticking your head in the sand will not solve anything. Wez, most of your post was rehashing already covered stuff or more attempts to flame and start a fight but let me offer you one point: An adult can legally dring booze, a child can't. An adult can take a test to drive a car, a child can't. An adult can join the military, a child can't. Different rules for different levels of ability or maturity, not hypocrisy. Even Builder just admitted that Iran is now stuck in the dark ages, they do not possess the maturity and self control to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons. We do stand on the high ground, some of that ground is built up on the dead bodies of our mistakes, I admit that, but what is the alternative? Do we stand frozen with inaction, refusing to do the right thing just because someone can point their finger at us for some long past mistake? We can't live in the past Wez, we have made mistakes but letting those mistakes tear us down would be an even bigger mistake.

I can't complain about it if she does not first take the shot at me right? Why is it nobody ever says a single word against those who make the off topic attacks like the one emkay just made, but if "I" point out what they did, suddenly even you have to say I am wrong for responding? The day people like you hold "both sides" equally responsible is the day I no longer feel compelled to point it out when they take the unreasonable shots. Imagine how nice it would be if people like emkay actually limited their comentary to the topics. They will fail, the only union stronger than the teacher's union is the UAW, but I am still very proud of them for standing up against the radical teachers. And your right, more than just those teachers will be out to get the kids for their protest, teachers are a tight group, worse than cops, stand up to them and a kid will have hell to pay.

I seem to remember wackos also claiming America was invading Iraq to steal the oil, and did that happen? First you claim Iran should not sell America oil and when I point out they don't, then you go sideways and come up with new claims, now you claim the world is only concerned with the nuclear weapons program in Iran because they want to sell their oil for a different currency. Do you recall a lot of drama connected to the north korea nuclear weapons development? How much oil are they selling for a different currency Builder? The amount of oil sold by Iran is nothing, they can trade it any way they want and it will not have a single negative effect on America. This is classic misdirection on your part Builder, you try to get people to look past the fact that every expert agrees that Iran is trying to produce nuclear weapons, even Wez is not refuting that fact and is only trying to say it is fair for them to have them if America has them. There is no oil conspiracy, but guess what, if there was one do you know the best way to eliminate the need for a conspiracy? To drill for more oil right here at home, but the radical liberals won't let us increase our own supply, in fact right now the radicals are trying to severely reduce our future supply and if that does happen, that means more dependence on foreign oil and a richer soil for the bad weeds of politics to grow and possibly create these kinds of conspiracies you seem to be saying is bad.

Why do you have to turn everything into an excuse to take a shot at me em?

Well Wez, if you have to reach way back to 1970 to find fault in what America had done I guess that proves we have come a long, long way to making things right. I never said we were perfect, just that we can handle the responsibility of having the nuclear weapons while a complete radical Country like Iran cannot. Trying to compare one lie by a Palestinian politician busted who hated Bush to public and recorded comments of the fanatic Ahmadinejad proves why your never willing to have an honest debate. Everything I mentioned about the killings in Iran is happening now, not 40 years ago, add to that the population of America is so large that when you compare the number of incidents to the size of the Country you would have to show a similar event in America every week to bo close, and you can't show that Wez. But there is two standards, one standard for those who can be trusted, and another for those who cannot. Remember, I already forced you to admit you would be more than happy to use force to punnish someone who stole your stuff, you have no problem with force as long as that force is applied in ways that suit you, your only complaint is if force is used in ways you don't llike so using your own standards of measure, your more eaten up with hypocrisy than anyone else, lol.

And how exactly was the life these teachers now enjoy possible without the military securing that life for them? This is something that really puzzles me about these far left folks.

Prove what? Did you not just see the recent violence against their own people Wez? We are talking about the most distructive weapon imaginable here Wez, not a firecracker. The stibility of the leadership is certainly a viable consideration in these things. I noticed you did not address my point about how this same leadership says there are no gays in Iran, do you believe that Wez? Don't you think making those kinds of comments and killing their own people for protesting the corrupted election says a lot about them? Wars that had nothing to do with them, they decided to insert themselves into them because they are unstable and felt compelled from their anger to do whatever they could to hurt America and company. This is an important point Wez, we know they caused most of the insurgency in Iran, if they get the ability to create nuclear bombs, the bombs they create will be detonated. The "big" powers having nukes all understand that mutual destruction is faced if they let the genie out of the bottle, radical crazy leaders like Ahmadinejad do not. Quotes by Ahmadinejad: “Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,� “Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the Islamic countries due to their need.� "In Iran, we don’t have homosexuals like in your country. We don’t have that in our country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I do not know who has told you that we have it." Don't forget Wez, Ahmadinejad has said many times he believes he will be involved in the coming of the 12th Imam, not a good time to let him have nuclear weapons

Becasue we are responsible enough to have them, they are not, they can't even hold an election without killing their own people. We dropped them in response to massive agression by Japan and ended a war, Iran would use them or give them to people to use them against peaceful people and innocents.

I know your just trying to start a fight, you must be bored again but I will give an honest answer anway: First of all, circumstances have nothing to do with each other, Iran having nuclear technology is an obvious security concern to America and pretty much everyone else in the world. We have to remember that almost all of the IED's used against Americans in Iraq came from Iran. If Iran does obtain the ability to produce nuclear weapons, they will share that ability with other radicals like them. Secondly, the stibility of the leadership is easily in question, from their comments that there are no gay people in Iran to their commentary to wanting to destroy Israel they certainly do not inspire confidence in the ability to have this kind of power in their hands without doing something stupid with it. Remember that Iran has had a couple huge meetings with hundreds of "experts" where they have proclaimed that the Holocaust was all a hoax.

I said it correctly, the poor, the guys who are hurt the most by Liberals screwing around with the oil supply only to try and gain political points (oh, and funnel money into their own pockets from the companies like GE who are possitioned to make the most money). I blame Obama for "knee jerk" political actions that make things worse, not better. I blame Obama for ignoring the experts in the field and doing whatever helps him and his political agenda instead of doing what is best for all americans. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/10/experts-say-obama-misrepresented-views-justify-offshore-drilling-ban/ The biggest two problems with alternative energy sources is the systems are not viable without Government assistence (bio fuels for example get Government subsidies, if you took away the subsidy, their price per gallon would put them out of reach to the average American). The second problem is even if you created a new reliable and cost effective fuel for cars, the poor would be the last to be able to afford the new cars. As we withdraw from oil based energy, the cost will sky rocket and the people hurt the most by that time are the poor who will be working the hardest to try and survive. Drilling more now would actually help the poor during those times because we could control the supply as we wean ourselves off oil products. As we use less oil, we will need to import less oil, eventually reaching a point where we can supply our own need instead of getting it from somewhere else. This would mean a lower impact on the poor. The new policies will cause heating costs in the north to tripple in cost, that is not the oil companies, that is Obama and the Liberals screwing the poor. Do you know that the "evil" oil companies make less profit on oil sales than the Government does? While the oil companies take all the risk, the Government makes a massive amount of 'free' money off of their work, and ask yourself another question, as we force the lower use of oil, where does the Government make up such a huge amount of loss tax revinue? Like Al Gore, they are in it for the money, they own the foundations of these alternative areas and stand to make so much money they will make the "oil barrons" you speak of look like poor orphans. Either Obama is listening to the experts or he is not. If he is ignoring the experts, there must be a reason that has nothing to do with the facts or the situation that the experts know more about than he does. So if not based on the need, what else could Obama be basing his decisions on? Personal and political gain seem the most likely.

Contrary to popular belief, America does not get most of it's oil from Middle eastern sources, the vast majority of the imported oil comes from Canada, Saudi is next on the list but when you do the math and add up all the imported oil, things are more clear: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html Iran is not even on the list, nothing Iran does with it's oil will even be noticed by America. Not sure what that has to do with sanctions imposed today for a Country ignoring the UN. The main issue for the sanctions is how Iran is refusing to cooperate, if they had nothign to hide, why not allow the inspecters full access?

Your trying to make my words into something they are not, it is you who is being false, so that means your lie/excuse machine is running, not mine Joe. I flat out gave my opinion of what I have witnessed myself, and the "I guess" was for the entire comment, you trying to spin my comments into what they are not is the lie Joe. Why is everything all about me Joe? Are my opinions of how often I see blacks with thicker women really relivent to a discussion about illegal immigration in your opinion? My words are what I said, what your trying to twist them into meaning is not what I said. Why spend so much time on trying to play "gotcha" Joe? You spend ten time the energy trying to find fault in something I say than you do anything else on the forum, maybe that time is better spent on other things?

I couldn't agree with you more Phreak. Nice to see you've come around to reality. . Sure beats the alternative, imagine how many "poor" are hurt by gas prices leaping up in price for example. I love it when the Liberals pretend to be looking out for the "little" guy while they crush him under their heel. The only reason they want to push less oil and more "alternatives" is because they own most of the interest in these alternatives. GE for example is possitioned to make the most money from the cap-and-tax program and guess who has been one of the biggest blind supporter of Obama? GE, imagine that. Even the "experts" Obama turned to for advice have said stopping drilling is a very bad idea, but why should Obama listen to the experts............?

Interpreted is the correct word, instead of seeing what is there, people are inserting their own interpretations on top of my words and then getting angry about what "they" changed the words into. My point was always the results of what the parents have done. Take Chi's point that the "only" reason any of us have issues with illegal immigration is because we are racists, is that true just because Chi says it? Does our issue with illegal immigration stem from our dislike for Mexicans only and the law is only an excuse to give Mexicans a hard time?.....................Of course not, I would not care what race was invading America, we have a serious problem and that problem needs to be addressed. Children who grow up never fitting into society because they have no racial identity is also a big problem, they tend to do worse in school, more issues with the law, and are less likely to stay in a lasting relationship. These are real problems, problems society deals with and the problem is caused by "adults" who don't think these things through before subjecting their children to that kind of life. Psychological abuse is every bit and sometimes more damaging than physical abuse. My point is about the abuse the children grow up enduring, not any one or two races in specific, just like my problem with illegal immegration has nothing to do with any race but instead with the problem caused to society by that illegal immigration. IWS, there was no stereotype to address, I offered my own observations from real life, I even ended my comment with "I guess" Joe, do you know what a guess is? Your acting like one of the race pimps now Joe, your trying to twist everything you can into a claim of racism, none of my possitions in life has anything to do with race itself but is instead based on actions and in this case the action is the lifetime of pain the mixed kids must endure because of a lack of planning or even caring from the parents who created them. While the only thing your concerned with is playing "gotcha" with me even if you have to take my words out of context and overlay your own meanings on top of my words to give you an excuse. And maybe eddo is right, maybe you should change the title of the thread, hell change the title to all the threads into being all about your personal "thing" some of you have for me because you guys never want to discuss the topics any firther than you can come up with an excuse to attack me. Almost every thread is about how you can twist something into a personal attack on me in some way while you completely ignore the topics. What does this thread have to do with my observations for what people like thicker girls? What part of this thread has to do with my belief that it is wrong to intentionally subject children to massive amounts of psychological abuse no matter even if it is the parents themselves causing it? You guys need to get your own "I hate Louis" tee shirts, lol.

I have a disdain for people who do things that hurt children, period. I don't have anything against any race of people, but I have real issues with irresponsibility from any person. I am also in the business world and the only real color to be concerned with is green. Your all trying to impose "your" racist concepts on me, because you can't see how I can make these kinds of decisions without hate, because you all make your decisions because of hate. You act this crazy and twist everything I say because you hearts are filled with hatred and you can't consider any other way to behave because this hate must be served, even if you have to lie about me. But, unlike all of you I never give up on you guys because I don't hate, so let me try a completely different way of trying to describe my possition on things like this: If a patient went to a doctor with a cancer that needed to be surgically removed, would it matter what his race was? No, why? Because the doctor should see the problem outside of any other considerations and deal with the problem. This is what I do, I ignore all politically correct issues completely. I don't care that some people are more concerned with "looking good" or "making friends", that is not why I discuss or debate topics. I am not here to be popular, I am here to tell the truth as I see it and be exposed to what other people see as truths. Both of our sides will have areas we miss, that is the point of talking about things. If we were perfect there would be no need to talk with each other. On the surface there is absolutely nothign wrong with people of different races making babies, I never said that it was wrong, I simply said it was wrong not to plan for the needs of that child they produced and most don't. Most ignore the fact that their rash decision caused a lifetime of pain. That lifetime of pain was my point, not the two people who made the life, but your all too blind to see past what you don't want to see, if you were honest you would admit my comment had nothing to do with hating the race of a single person. If you were honest you would admit I am talking about causing harm and pain to children. If you were honest though you would not be scouring my old posts trying to find something you can twist it's meaning to attack me with either.

You know Wez, I used to think you fit the description of stupid or ignorant because so much of what you said made no sense at all, but later I discovered that everything you say is designed for a specific result to generate arguements. Once I stopped feeding your desire to argue you got even more angry with me and that is why you follow me around saying things like this. I don't hate you Wez, I don't have a shread of ill feelings for anyone here, I find it impossible to generate those kinds of passions (positive or negative) for strangers over the internet. But, I accept you for who you are, and I still will try to reply to your less crazy questions but I also know your always trying to direct a discussion to a heated arguement, and I just refuse to go there with you anymore. I admit, I used to, but I was wrong for that, now I have learned better and I hope you too learn that this kind of stuff is just a waste of time.

Of cours you are correct on the "correct" usage of the terms Tori, but more often than not that is not the common usage of those words. Modern usage does sometimes change the words even if we don't want them to. Consider how many words are used to describe breasts: http://www.listaholic.com/138-slang-words-for-breasts.html When it comes to the words stupid and ignorant, they tend to be used as derogatory terms tossed at those who do not agree with the speaker. As you described in your example, people who have mental disorders and "can't" learn as most people can are not something to create feelings of irritation, they can't help how they are no more than you can blame a cow for not knowing how to fly. Ignorance as your correctly using it is a problem sometimes, but I rarely find myself feeling any emotional reaction for that kind of thing, people are the way they are, the only thing that really irritates me are those who seem to get angry without good cause, take your politics example, many even here will get all worked up and make personal attacks on me because I do not confrom to their beliefs. I do not agree with many people here but I have never been angry with a single person for not sharing my belief on a debate. The give and take is cool, I can get as spirited as the next guy, but I see no reason for the emotional outbursts. Most people really have no clue why they believe what they believe, as you correctly point out, many people will vote for one thing or another because they are expected to, or their family does, ect, but if you actually pin them down on the details of "why" they believe what they believe most will look at you with a blank expression because they don't really know. I am the first person to say I can be very hard headed on certain things, but I always have a sold reason to offer why I believe what I believe, I don't do blind following.

The seven experts who advised President Obama on how to deal with offshore drilling safety after the Deepwater Horizon explosion are accusing his administration of misrepresenting their views to make it appear that they supported a six-month drilling moratorium -- something they actually oppose. The experts, recommended by the National Academy of Engineering, say Interior Secretary Ken Salazar modified their report last month, after they signed it, to include two paragraphs calling for the moratorium on existing drilling and new permits. Salazar's report to Obama said a panel of seven experts "peer reviewed" his recommendations, which included a six-month moratorium on permits for new wells being drilled using floating rigs and an immediate halt to drilling operations. "None of us actually reviewed the memorandum as it is in the report," oil expert Ken Arnold told Fox News. "What was in the report at the time it was reviewed was quite a bit different in its impact to what there is now. So we wanted to distance ourselves from that recommendation." Salazar apologized to those experts Thursday. "The experts who are involved in crafting the report gave us their recommendation and their input and I very much appreciate those recommendations," he said. "It was not their decision on the moratorium. It was my decision and the president's decision to move forward." In a letter the experts sent to Salazar, they said his primary recommendation "misrepresents" their position and that halting the drilling is actually a bad idea. The oil rig explosion occurred while the well was being shut down – a move that is much more dangerous than continuing ongoing drilling, they said. They also said that because the floating rigs are scarce and in high demand worldwide, they will not simply sit in the Gulf idle for six months. The rigs will go to the North Sea and West Africa, possibly preventing the U.S. from being able to resume drilling for years. They also said the best and most advanced rigs will be the first to go, leaving the U.S. with the older and potentially less safe rights operating in the nation's coastal waters. Does stuff like this even get noticed anymore? Are we so used to our politicians 'cheating' that when they do it we don't even blink? And when they are busted 'cheating' they just toss a fast "sorry" and not even feel ashamed at how they acted?

I believe you describe the problem well Tori, these descriptive words have been misused for so long that a true understanding is difficult because each of us develop our own concepts of what is or is not "stupid". I don't really buy into the "stupid" concept very much, as Builder pointed out, some people just learn differently from other people. I don't like the word stupid because many times people were just never exposed to either the right way to learn "for them" or maybe they just never had exposures to whatever it is someone is talking to them about. I can "shade tree" weld for example. I have never had formal training but I can do it. Now, does that make me smart to those who can't weld or stupid to those who have formal training or who can do more complex welding than I can? The word ignorant is pretty much in the same boat, more often than not the word is used to describe those who do not want to agree with us or see the world the way we see it. Most people believe that if they can't get the other people to agree with them, then that other person must be ignorant because we see ourselves as "right" and those who don't agree with us as "wrong" so their refusal to agree must mean they are just stupid or ignorant. I believe we all share the ability to learn and understand, we just have to reach those abilities in different ways sometimes. Consider both versions of the question for a moment, the real question is not about the subject being stupid or ignorant, but why your getting irritated in the first place? Why get irritated or angry over someone else's lack of ability to see things the way you see them?

Interesting but it does not really change anything. There was no lie, as I just pointed out, before Bush ever took office Bill Clinton and all the liberals who had their own access to information were saying the exact same things Bush said. For Bush to have spoken a lie, he would have had to have independent knowledge that the US intelligence groups did not have access to. With all the liberals all claiming how stupid Bush was, how is it they also say that he was smarter than Bill Clinton and should have seen a result out of the available information that Bill Clinton missed? All the evidence clearly showed that Iraq had never "officially" accounted for many kinds of weapons, I personally believe he shipped them to other places or even destroyed them without telling anyone because he did not want to give America the satisfaction of finding them. Hell, huge areas of land, he could easily have just buried a lot of stuff then killed everyone who was involved in it so nobody could blab. Nobody knows for sure what happened to these weapons, but we do know that there was no possible way Bush could have manufactured evidence of these things before ever taking office and we also know that everyone who had access to this information all agreed with what Bush said, many times Bush was repeating what was already said by people like Bill Clinton. If this was all lies, it was lies created by the Clinton administration before Bush ever took office.